Question about Beowulf tactics

The GA is at war with the SLN wherever it is now found. That the RMN and RHN and GSN are not presently show activly chasing down SLN ships doen't mean that they are not doing it, just we are not being shown it.
The are NOT standing picket close to the Beowulf hyper-limit but are around the terminus. Actually, the present story line doesn't mention any of the military ships near the Sigma Draconis terminus other than RMN and we presume at least a couple of BSDF (presumably the rest of BSDF is in the Beowulf system.

Other than 1) Mike and 10th Fleet and 2) the several RMN task forces shown occupying captured termini of various wormholes. nobody from the GA is shown inside SLN space or places in the verge beyond Talbott cluster.

I don't think Manticore really wants to have RHN forces hanging about around the outside termini of the Manticore Junction. At the moment, except for the places mentioned above, the GA is presently (that we have been shown) keeping the majority (and all of the RHN) inside the Haven Quadrant.

That would change when the GA switches over to active commerce raiding and any protective/proactive patrolling in the Verge or attacking specific targets withing SL and OFS space. RHN ships are going to (for the latest built ships at least) significatly out-range anything the SLN has so they would be the most useful in the raiding and patrolling with the exceptiong of adding RMN most current ships assigned to add sensor and tacktical range/depth to mixed forces. Haven has more ships, more missiles and are still actively building more of both to present state-of-he art for them. I presume Haven is finishing the building of anything in the shipyards since it would not be efficent nor particulary safe for them to stop and/or scrap all new construction untill the designs for "Manty fusion" tech ships are approved and able to be started.
You want to go hunting SLN, the RHN can do the job just fine. It is mostly a question of effective use of resources.

Weird Harold wrote:

StealthSeeker wrote:Though I still say that the RMN would have a quick reaction force sitting in hyperspace that would pop out close to the SLN fleet to get the job done.

Why is it so difficult to accept the textev that there will be NO RMN involvement or presence until after the vote and even then not immediately.

The Beowulf SDF, backed by freighter loads of Mk23 MDM and/or Mk 25 SysDM -- with or without Apollo and a fully functioning Mycroft network -- doesn't need their help and definitely don't need the political fallout from a RMN presence; observer nor assistance.

I very much agree that Manticore needs to do what ever it needs to do to fill out Beowulf's Mycroft missile defense. But I do believe that there is textev that Beowulf will need a little assistance in the task.

(FROM ARTp438: "I agree that once Mycroft's up and running, especially, anybody who goes after Beowulf is going to get bloodied in a hurry," she said now, "I guess my main concerns are that, like the terminus picket, Mycroft isn't a visible deterrent, especially since we're keeping it so completely under wraps till it's actually up and running, and, secondly, that it isn't up and running yet and won't be for at least another couple of months. Maybe longer." She shook her head. "It's that window that worries me," she said soberly. "In the Mandarins' place, I'd make it a point to assume that we had to be aware of Beowulf's vulnerability and be doing something about it, but I'm not at all sure they will.")

So, if the vote is in 2 months from this discussion and the attack has to happen before the vote, then this is saying that there is a window of vulnerability because Mycroft may take more than 2 months to bring on line. There will be a part for the RMN to play in what happens and its great fun trying to imagine all the possibilities of what that involvement might be.

n7axw wrote:

StealthSeeker wrote:
I like this. I had always thought in terms of the attack being directed at Beowulf but there is no reason that the RMN couldn't just announce that they considered all these ships in space near it's terminus as representing a threat to that terminus and attack the SLN before it even gets to the Beowulf hyper limit. Great idea!

Why even announce it? A state of war exists. The SLN is fair game wherever it might be found...Act accordingly.

Don

That was my thought. You give warning only in a "surrender or die" sort of way (alright, be polite about it, but that really is the idea). No justification of being a threat is required, just a state of war and being within reach.

Vince wrote:In the Honorverse, once a ship voluntarily lowers its wedge, it is the faster than light signal to the opposing forces that it has surrendered. And if it involuntarily lowers its wedge (wedge loss due to battle damage), it is most likely either an expanding cloud of plasma or a hulk. In either case, it is no threat to the opposing forces and will no longer be targeted.

I don't think we have ever seen a case of where a warship that loses its wedge as a result of battle damage continues to fight--if a ship takes so much damage that its wedge goes down but without being destroyed outright, it is mission-killed.

Nope, I also can't recall a ship deliberately continuing to fight after it lost it's wedge. Now, if the enemy doesn't come along (or communicate) to formalize that surrender then an Honorverse ship is free to finish repairs on its wedge and resume the fight (or just attempt to flee).

Though I'd quibble that striking your wedge is more an offer to surrender, than the actual surrender (though it's an offer that definitely coupled with an obligation, on both parties, to cease firing). That's why you aren't breaking parole, or violating your surrender, if left alone long enough to restore / raise your wedge and flee.

I believe that's happened in wet sail navies when one ship's flag has been shot away. Run up another flag and the fight is back on. Or even if there was a deliberate striking of the flag, if the fight moves on and you're left along long enough there's no real rule about carrying out repairs and then attempting to sail off without waiting around to be actually captured.

Hi Sharkhunter,


I'm sorry. We're not playing monopoly or chess here. At very least a state of war exists between the Solarian League and the GA sinse the second BOM. that means that all of the forces of the SLN are subject to either capture or destruction. So also the orbital infrastructure and naval forces of any system which refuses to stand down and renounce its affiliation with the League.

Don

Many of you had been using an acronym of "HoS" in several of your posts and it had caused be a great deal of confusion as I could not figure out what you were talking about as none of the book titles (HH1 to HH13) matched those letters. Nor did any of the torch series or any of the rest. In exasperation I finally did a look up on Wikipedia for all books that Mr. Weber had written and I found a previously unknown book to me titled "House of Steal". Wow... what a surprise!

Now I know where you have all been getting so many of these numbers and odd facts from! And I also discovered that LAC's are no longer the fastest ships that Manticore makes. The newer destroyers and cruisers are even faster. So now my "cavalry" to rush in to save Beowulf can have more than just LAC's in it. Even better.

StealthSeeker wrote:Many of you had been using an acronym of "HoS" in several of your posts and it had caused be a great deal of confusion as I could not figure out what you were talking about as none of the book titles (HH1 to HH13) matched those letters. Nor did any of the torch series or any of the rest. In exasperation I finally did a look up on Wikipedia for all books that Mr. Weber had written and I found a previously unknown book to me titled "House of Steal". Wow... what a surprise!

Now I know where you have all been getting so many of these numbers and odd facts from! And I also discovered that LAC's are no longer the fastest ships that Manticore makes. The newer destroyers and cruisers are even faster. So now my "cavalry" to rush in to save Beowulf can have more than just LAC's in it. Even better.

Glad you found yet another Honorverse book to enjoy.

But the LACs should still be the quickest things in space. (The acceleration numbers in HoS are for the ships as designed - so when you compare an older design like the 1912 PD Shrike to a newer one like the 1920 PD Roland class it's a little misleading. The Shrikes would have benefited from refits to newer generations of compensators, keeping them ahead of any new ship of the same compensator generation. (For that matter I think we've seen LACs pull higher accels, in recent books, than their 1912 PD max acceleration)



Though it seems some of the other data is not backdated to their original values. Obviously ship count isn't as of first ship; it appears to be in service as of about 1921. Also ship weapons lists sometimes seem to reflect later refits.

Specifically it was pointed out to me on the Homer-class BC which lists a grav lance and energy torpedoes in it's broadsides; yet the text for that same entry says those were added to later flight - though in the Agamemnons the weapons listing (and line drawing) appear to be for the first unit; not the Keyhole refit that gave up half their grasers.


Anyway, enjoy the story, as well as the treasure trove of tidbits and facts that make up House of Steel. (Then join us all in waiting impatiently for the 2nd companion book; House of Lies which will cover the Peeps)

Jonathan_S wrote:
Glad you found yet another Honorverse book to enjoy.

But the LACs should still be the quickest things in space. (The acceleration numbers in HoS are for the ships as designed - so when you compare an older design like the 1912 PD Shrike to a newer one like the 1920 PD Roland class it's a little misleading. The Shrikes would have benefited from refits to newer generations of compensators, keeping them ahead of any new ship of the same compensator generation. (For that matter I think we've seen LACs pull higher accels, in recent books, than their 1912 PD max acceleration)

Though it seems some of the other data is not backdated to their original values. Obviously ship count isn't as of first ship; it appears to be in service as of about 1921. Also ship weapons lists sometimes seem to reflect later refits.

Specifically it was pointed out to me on the Homer-class BC which lists a grav lance and energy torpedoes in it's broadsides; yet the text for that same entry says those were added to later flight - though in the Agamemnons the weapons listing (and line drawing) appear to be for the first unit; not the Keyhole refit that gave up half their grasers.

Anyway, enjoy the story, as well as the treasure trove of tidbits and facts that make up House of Steel. (Then join us all in waiting impatiently for the 2nd companion book; House of Lies which will cover the Peeps)

You're throwing around a lot of information there about evolving ship capabilities over time. Is there another reference book I should be looking for? Or have you just been very studious in collecting information throughout the series of books?

I have read almost every book that Mr. Weber has written and I have enjoyed all of them. I didn't find the Safehold series until last year but I have them all read now and am waiting for more. But of all the books that he has written the one I am most desperate to have a "next in the series of" is the Honor Harrington series (HH14).

CoG was nice, I enjoyed it, but it did nothing to help resolve the burning question I have had since ART. WHAT HAPPENS AT BEOWULF!!! My mind keeps spinning out a great number of possibilities of how it could play out. The only way to silence that buzzing of possibilities is to read the book to see how Mr. Weber decides to tell it.

I am in favor of following up the defense of Beowulf with an attack on the SLN mothball fleet and shipyards. I want to knock some stuffing out of the SLN with out killing a lot of people. Blowing up their useless "reserve" while no people are in them seems like a great way to do that. I would save the precious Manty missiles by using LAC grasers to do most of the dirty work.

The one bit of good information I got from CoG was that Henke will arrive in Mesa at about the same time that the SLN is going to be arriving in Beowulf. Which aught to make the heads of the SLN Admiralty absolutely spin! Having that large of a force so close in their rear should shake things up just a bit!

StealthSeeker wrote:Many of you had been using an acronym of "HoS" in several of your posts and it had caused be a great deal of confusion as I could not figure out what you were talking about as none of the book titles (HH1 to HH13) matched those letters. Nor did any of the torch series or any of the rest. In exasperation I finally did a look up on Wikipedia for all books that Mr. Weber had written and I found a previously unknown book to me titled "House of Steal". Wow... what a surprise!

Now I know where you have all been getting so many of these numbers and odd facts from! And I also discovered that LAC's are no longer the fastest ships that Manticore makes. The newer destroyers and cruisers are even faster. So now my "cavalry" to rush in to save Beowulf can have more than just LAC's in it. Even better.

You can find a lot of the acronyms used at:
http://web.ncf.ca/et116/DW-ABBR.htm or just ask here, as there are a lot of people who will respond to a polite request for information. After all, most of us remember what it was like to be clueless.

fallsfromtrees wrote:You can find a lot of the acronyms used at:
http://web.ncf.ca/et116/DW-ABBR.htm or just ask here, as there are a lot of people who will respond to a polite request for information. After all, most of us remember what it was like to be clueless.

Thanks for the pointer. However, would you believe that HoS isn't on the list??

Wait!! My bad. I only looked in the alphabetical listing and didn't look at the rest of the page, it was there.