Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Guns, Guns Guns

The Management is not responsible for the contents of this forum. Enter at your own risk.
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by The E   » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:15 pm

The E
Admiral

Posts: 2704
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 1:28 pm
Location: Meerbusch, Germany

MAD-4A wrote:They also don't define the word "is" so that word has no meaning in them? Should there be a preamble that defines every word used in the document? It was a basic concept to those who wrote them.


A constitution has to define where the ultimate power in a society rests. The US Constitution does so in its Preamble: The People, jointly, decide to transfer some of the power they hold into the organs of the US Government as defined by the following text.

For PeterZ's assertion (that the ultimate power in the US rests with the individual and that other countries do not recognize similar rights) to be true, the language in that preamble would have to be different.

Yes, as I said, individual sovereignty is a precursor concept to popular sovereignty. But it is not a legal concept in the context of the Constitution. It certainly isn't a uniquely american concept.

That's all there is to it: If PeterZ wants to claim that other countries do not recognize individual sovereignty based on the language of their constitutions, then what does it say about the US if its Constitution does not include similar language?

Oh, and before I forget, as historically significant as the Declaration of Independence was, it is not a legally binding document for US Citizens or any part of the US Government.
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Tenshinai   » Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:36 pm

Tenshinai
Admiral

Posts: 2893
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:34 pm
Location: Sweden

Damn, this forum really needs a popcorn emoticon, because this is utterly hilarious.


Ok, so PeterZ just totally killed his own argument, then tried to claim religious authority topping all, based on, well nothing tangible or in any way legally viable.


I mean seriously, i DID think he had something at least a little better than "we the people" to come up with.

Because if that´s all there was, Sweden certainly has a stronger individual basis than USA. :mrgreen:

How amusing.


(the US has, by definition, never actually had a "Civil War" only a failed war of independence)


:lol:

Mmm, yes that´s usually one of the ways a "civil war happens".

Definition being "a war between citizens of the same country."
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:10 pm

Daryl
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3610
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:57 am
Location: Queensland Australia

All men are created equal.
That phrase conveniently ignored all the male slaves on the founder's own plantations, and specifically excluded all the female humans in the country. So does this "individual sovereignty" only apply to white adult male humans nowadays?
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Michael Everett   » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:07 am

Michael Everett
Admiral

Posts: 2621
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:54 am
Location: Bristol, England

Tenshinai wrote:Damn, this forum really needs a popcorn emoticon, because this is utterly hilarious.

Image
Already popped and ready to eat!
~~~~~~

I can't write anywhere near as well as Weber
But I try nonetheless, And even do my own artwork.
(Now on Twitter)and mentioned by RFC!
ACNH Dreams at DA-6594-0940-7995
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Spacekiwi   » Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:49 am

Spacekiwi
Admiral

Posts: 2634
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:08 am
Location: New Zealand

Cant believe that icon i started using here those years ago keeps on giving to everyone. :)



Michael Everett wrote:
Tenshinai wrote:Damn, this forum really needs a popcorn emoticon, because this is utterly hilarious.

Image
Already popped and ready to eat!
`
Image


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
its not paranoia if its justified... :D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:31 am

MAD-4A
Captain of the List

Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:48 pm
Location: Texas

Tenshinai wrote:Mmm, yes that´s usually one of the ways a "civil war happens".

Definition being "a war between citizens of the same country."

No - you truncated the definition - a "Civil War" is:
a war between political factions or regions within the same country.
or (to elaborate) a war between different faction in the same country for control of the entire country. The South was not trying to control the north (regardless of what Kevin Willmott claimed). What happened in 1861 was a war for southern independence or a war of succession - no more a "Civil War" than the war between the colonies & England in 1776 or the war between Mexico & Spain in 1825 or the war between Mexico & Texas 11 years later. The Southern states declared independence and formed their own separate country, which was then invaded by the federal government, controlling the remaining states. Calling a pear a peach doesn't let you make peach cobbler out of it. I was a (failed) "War of Independence" not a "Civil War".
-
Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:52 am

MAD-4A
Captain of the List

Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:48 pm
Location: Texas

The E wrote:Oh, and before I forget, as historically significant as the Declaration of Independence was, it is not a legally binding document for US Citizens or any part of the US Government.
Yes it is - It is the basis of the very existencee of the US government - to throw it out is to throw out all legitimacy of the US government even existing in the first place - which means without that document, we rightfully revert to British Colonial rule! That is the charter on which all other US legal documents rest.
Daryl wrote:All men are created equal.
That phrase conveniently ignored all the male slaves on the founder's own plantations, and specifically excluded all the female humans in the country. So does this "individual sovereignty" only apply to white adult male humans nowadays?
As with so many people who grow up in this modern Ivory-Tower of political-correctness today, you apparently view history with the rose-colored-glasses of your own modern prejudices. Do you really believe the $#!% that the south was a bunch of racist bigots and (somehow) the North sent 100s of thousands of their white sons to die freeing the poor blacks down there because it was just the right thing to do? - no the invasion of the south was about money$$$$ - Tobacco and Cotton crops - the "Oil" of the day. A reporter asked Lincoln why they shouldn't just let the south go, his reply was "Then where would we get our money from?" You don't think he didn't use the "N" word all his life - he wrote it in his letters.
Stop being so prejudice against the standards of the day & try to understand things based on what was happening at the time - there was a reason for the 3/5ths clause - it was to help the slaves not belittle them. Do you think if they made the Declaration of Independence or The Constitution include the slaves as free, that the southern colonies would have ever joined?
-
Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by The E   » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:17 am

The E
Admiral

Posts: 2704
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 1:28 pm
Location: Meerbusch, Germany

MAD-4A wrote:Yes it is - It is the basis of the very existencee of the US government - to throw it out is to throw out all legitimacy of the US government even existing in the first place - which means without that document, we rightfully revert to British Colonial rule! That is the charter on which all other US legal documents rest.


No, wrong. The Treaty of Paris, in which the United Kingdom abandoned all claims to territory held by the 13 Colonies, and in which the UK accepted the legitimacy of the US Government made the Declaration of Independence irrelevant as a legal document. Furthermore, it was the Articles of Confederation, ratified in 1777, which form the legal basis of the US (and they were superceded by the Constitution in 1787). The Declaration of Independence, as significant as it was, is NOT a constitution. It is NOT a legally binding document for Citizens of the US, the US government, or the UK government.

In strictly legal terms, the Articles of Confederation is the first document defining the powers of the US Government. The Declaration is merely a statement of intent to secede from the UK; and while the philosophies expressed in it form the basis of the philosophies expressed in the Articles and the later Constitution, there is still no legally binding definition of individual sovereignty to be found in them.
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:21 pm

MAD-4A
Captain of the List

Posts: 719
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:48 pm
Location: Texas

The E wrote:... The Declaration of Independence, as significant as it was, is NOT a constitution. It is NOT a legally binding document for Citizens of the US, the US government, or the UK government...
a) I never said it was a "Constitution" & b) It is the basis for the claim that the American people should not be members of the United Kingdom. The Treaty of Paris was the ratification of the Declaration of Independence. Disregarding it, disregards the claim of independence and thus refutiates the Treaty of Paris and returns the right to rule back to the English crown. It is not irrelevant and it is morally binding to the American people. It is the basis of our independence from the English crown and we are morally obligated, by that fact, to live up to it's ideas. Converting the US to socialist despotism is a violation of those moral obligations and a refutation of both the document and the independence it provided, thus an act of treason.
-
Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
Top
Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by gcomeau   » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:51 pm

gcomeau
Admiral

Posts: 2747
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:24 pm

MAD-4A wrote:a) I never said it was a "Constitution" & b) It is the basis for the claim that the American people should not be members of the United Kingdom. The Treaty of Paris was the ratification of the Declaration of Independence.



Those words you're using don't mean what you're trying to use them to mean.

The Declaration of Independence was absolutely not "ratified" at the signing of the Treaty of Paris. The Treaty of Paris in no way whatsoever so much as referenced the Declaration.


Disregarding it, disregards the claim of independence and thus refutiates the Treaty of Paris and returns the right to rule back to the English crown.


No it does not. The Treaty of Paris is a STAND ALONE legally binding international agreement. It did not in any way at all depend on anything written in the Declaration.
Top

Return to Politics