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Guns, Guns Guns

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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by gcomeau   » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:49 pm

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smr wrote:In Switzerland, every single man that has passed basic training owns a firearm.


Yeah, and if you want to do something along those lines and revert to what the Founders intended and impose mandatory military service for every adult and put them under training and discipline THEN give them a damn weapon while holding them far more directly and personally responsible for that weapons handling, storage and use than any civilian in the US is... great.


But that isn't what anyone is talking about here. There's just talking about everyone having guns because "Yay guns!" Just handing out weapons to people sans any serious attempt to couple that with enforced responsibility for said weapons is freaking stupid as a response to gun violence. That is what *causes* gun violence.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by smr   » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:36 am

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Ok how about the government enforce the current gun laws on the books. The government should be tacking pn jail time for using firearms but they don't. How many criminals would be committing crimes with firearms when they stand to serve 10 to 30 years extra for committing a felony with a firearm. The firearm does not kill people but our fellow human beings do. Quit blaming an inanimate object and start holding our fellow human beings responsible for their actions.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by gcomeau   » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:57 pm

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smr wrote:Ok how about the government enforce the current gun laws on the books. The government should be tacking pn jail time for using firearms but they don't.


That's hilarious.


Yeah, the current life in prison/death penalty possible penalty associated with murder is clearly not enough of a deterrent. Let's make it life in prison/death PLUS some extra jail time! That will solve everything!


How can you be this clueless about basic human nature? You realize that a huge amount of these deaths are committed in the heat of the moment? That the people doing the killing aren't sitting down and logically planning out their actions and doing some risk/reward calculation and weighing if "X" amount of jail time is worth risking to pull their gun out and start firing?


People die at a ridiculous rate from gun violence in the US primarily because in situations where in other countries you have a fist fight in the US there are far too many instances where a gun just happens to be accessible in the heat of the moment to a bunch of idiot jackasses who have no discipline or training and someone ends up dead. You can't fix that by fiddling with criminal sentencing!


And it especially sure as hell isn't going to do anything about the whacko mass shooters. They already tend to end up dead anyway. You think adding the threat of a bit of extra jail time to their, again, already almost certain life sentence if they happen to survive their spree is going to do squat? You can't possibly be that delusional.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:26 am

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Elsewhere in the developed world the US right's mantra that "guns don't kill, people do", and it will all be right if the mental health issues are sorted causes much head shaking. Of all the developed countries, one stands dramatically out in terms of gun violence and mass murders.
As it is a reasonable assumption that all these countries have similar mental health conditions, why is this so? But wait, one has significantly higher private gun ownership.

I concede that no sensible and truly sane person would go out and shoot people for little if any cause, but research indicates that only about 5% of mass gun murderers in the USA have significant prior diagnosed mental problems.

smr wrote:Ok how about the government enforce the current gun laws on the books. The government should be tacking pn jail time for using firearms but they don't. How many criminals would be committing crimes with firearms when they stand to serve 10 to 30 years extra for committing a felony with a firearm. The firearm does not kill people but our fellow human beings do. Quit blaming an inanimate object and start holding our fellow human beings responsible for their actions.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by pokermind   » Sat Nov 07, 2015 6:59 am

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Daryl wrote:
[Snip]

I concede that no sensible and truly sane person would go out and shoot people for little if any cause, but research indicates that only about 5% of mass gun murderers in the USA have significant prior diagnosed mental problems.

[Snip smr quote]


Ah there is lying and lying with statistics, mass murder is considered a deviation from societal norms in most cultures, and in US and Australian cultures for sure. Thus 100% of mass killings are committed by deviants.

That such a low percentage have "significant prior diagnosed mental problems" is more an indication of the poor state of the mental health care here. Current gun laws and enforcement especially among veterans actually dissuade the mentally ill from seeking mental health care.

Recent job loss and resultant depression is the core of most workplace violence (Going Postal). Radical religious views that following God or Allah's will rather than the law of the land has sparked some. Persecution and bulling in schools others. And some psychopaths who just enjoy killing.

The latest mass attack was done with a knife, but only the perpetrator was killed, firearms are much more deadly than knives.

Culturally our history of armed defiance of authority means that such a ban as occurred in Australia is as likely to cause a Civil War here as meek obedience to a tyrannical government. Both left and right think that elections are rigged and do not show the true will of the people (unless our guy wins).

Civil discussion of issues, even willingness to see the other side's point of view are things of the past, and is dividing this nation in an alarming manner.

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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by dscott8   » Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:19 pm

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pokermind wrote:Civil discussion of issues, even willingness to see the other side's point of view are things of the past, and is dividing this nation in an alarming manner.

Poker


This I heartily second. We have become a nation of extremists, all shouting "my way or the highway". We're enamored of slippery-slope fallacies, in this case the idea that ANY government regulation of gun ownership will ultimately lead to confiscation and tyranny. No one wants to discuss possible solutions in the middle, it's either "ban all firearms" or "AK-47s for everyone"! If you suggest, as I do, mandatory training and criminal/psych background check for ownership licensing, serial-number registration for every firearm, all sales and transfers to be recorded (only between licensed persons), and liability for misuse of weapons registered in your name, ban supporters object because some people would still have guns, and 2nd Amendment enthusiasts object because they don't want the government knowing anything about their arsenals.

People seem to ignore two established legal principles:

1. No constitutional right is absolute. Free speech does not allow slander. Freedom of religion does not allow human sacrifice. Rights are subject to regulation for the protection of others.

2. With rights comes responsibility. If you run a newspaper, you are liable if you knowingly publish false information that damages someone. The right to travel (US v. Wheeler, US v. Guest) does not allow you to drive 150 MPH on the interstate.

I keep hoping for a great centrist movement to develop in the US, but it's much easier to get people worked up with extremist rhetoric than with common sense and compromise.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Tenshinai   » Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:38 pm

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dscott8 wrote:...
I keep hoping for a great centrist movement to develop in the US, but it's much easier to get people worked up with extremist rhetoric than with common sense and compromise.


Almost certainly not going to happen as long as the political system favours otherwise.
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Sun Nov 08, 2015 4:40 pm

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How come nobody mentions Puerto Rico?

Just stumbled over this on the FBI data base "Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter" rate is 24.4 in 2013

Best wishes,
T2M

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/c ... e_2013.xls
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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Annachie   » Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:45 pm

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T2M, some context would be nice. That chart was real hard to make out on the phone screen.


Poker, you basically hit the other nail right on the head there.

The third nail in the US coffin is of course the rampant oppression of the poor/lower class.

You need to fix all 3.

Gun bunny culture (especially and particularly the unsafe culture)
General mental health. (Especially the access to guns by the unhealthy)
The ghettoes for want of a better description.

Most western countries have avoided the culture, so have not had the problems caused by the other two.



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Re: Guns, Guns Guns
Post by Daryl   » Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:03 am

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You could also mention Venezuela at 51, or Honduras at 65 but only if you concede that you are comparing 3d world countries to the USA. The same FBI charts show the USA at 4.5% which sounds good until compared to Australia at 0.11% or nearly all developed countries at below 0.5%.

Obviously all the USA is not uniformly bad, but this just shows up the disadvantages of having a weak central government. If you had enforceable national gun laws, along with a national welfare and health safety net, and a national minimum wage (at a liveable level), then you wouldn't have as many desperate people living in shameful conditions.


thinkstoomuch wrote:How come nobody mentions Puerto Rico?

Just stumbled over this on the FBI data base "Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter" rate is 24.4 in 2013

Best wishes,
T2M

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/c ... e_2013.xls
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