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Shooting in Oregon.

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Re: Shooting in Oregon.
Post by Daryl   » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:14 am

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Thanks for that Poker, absolutely fascinating to those outside the US.

This may end up for the best, remember the saying "What happens if they call a war and nobody came?".

If few turn up then this uniquely US militia concept will be discredited and eventually fade away.

If lots turn up armed, then hard choices will have to be made if the US is to remain a credible nation. Despite the calls for a peaceful demonstration I don't imagine that those involved are in that mood.
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Re: Shooting in Oregon.
Post by pokermind   » Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:23 am

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Another side is that of the Native Americans. Many on private lands unearth native artifacts for sale, their heritage. this is a Native American look at the situation in cartoon form:

Image

Note the man on the left in Camo was the one killed.

This is the Constitution side of the issue from the right in a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T424sWq1SkE

Hmm the Federal Government unconstitutionally holds land in the US?

Tie in to the Clintons:

https://themarshallreport.wordpress.com/2016/01/24/clinton-foundation-pockets-massive-payoffs-from-russia-for-mining-rights-in-wyoming-and-oregon-hammond-ranch-part-of-the-deal/

Hmm, curiouser and couriuser

Poker
CPO Poker Mind Image and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.

"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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Ruby Ridge & Waco re: Shooting in Oregon.
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:32 pm

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IfIRecallCorrectly, Bush (1) was still President when
the Ruby Ridge Shootings happened.
Why did you write of Vicky Weaver as if her death were
a third incident, and why did you not mention who was
President at the time?

I also seem to recall that the Waco siege, in the first
months of Clinton's Presidency, was begun by holdovers
from G H Bush's administration whom Clinton had not yet
replaced. Maybe even some of the same ones who had
caused the attacks (including legal attacks) against the
Weavers.

The actions against the Weavers, both in their town and
at Ruby Ridge, were all Government Misconduct.
The best defense against G. M., in the USA, is a Lawyer.
A very good lawyer, Gerry something (Spence?), had
offered his services to the Weavers.
They preferred to defend themselves with guns,
on Ruby Ridge. Vicky Weaver could have kept herself,
*and their children,* in town out of the line of fire.
She preferred to stay with her man, and keep their
children with them.

After the shooting was over, the dispute did end up in
court, and Gerry Spence won court victories for the
Weavers on all points. He presumably would have won them
without any shooting, had the Weavers chosen him,
instead of guns, as their first line of defense.

Howard Wilkins, Pointy-Headed Liberal

pokermind wrote:
{snip - htm}

In the 1990s the Clinton Administration killed people at Waco and Ruby Ridge leading to the Backlash at Oklahoma City. In my state, Idaho, {at Ruby Ridge - htm}
we saw Vicky Weaver murdered holding an eleven month old assault baby. Now we have fear and hatred of the government.

{snip - htm}

Poker
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Re: Shooting in Oregon.
Post by pokermind   » Sat Jan 30, 2016 3:46 pm

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Waco occurred February 28 and April 19, 1993, and Ruby Ridge occurred May 19 and May 21, 1996. Bill Clinton was president January 20, 1993 through January 20, 2001. So both occurred during his presidency, dates from Wikipedia. And Ruby Ridge was well in his first term.

Poker
CPO Poker Mind Image and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.

"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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Re: Shooting in Oregon.
Post by Howard T. Map-addict   » Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:53 pm

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According to Wikipedia,
the Ruby Ridge shootings happened in 1992,
that is Nineteen Ninety *Two,* in August.

George Bush was still President.

Wiki doesn't mention anything in 1996, or any May.

Howard, who hopes that we all remember that
RR happened *before* Waco!

pokermind wrote:Waco occurred February 28 and April 19, 1993, and Ruby Ridge occurred May 19 and May 21, 1996. Bill Clinton was president January 20, 1993 through January 20, 2001. So both occurred during his presidency, dates from Wikipedia. And Ruby Ridge was well in his first term.

Poker
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Re: Shooting in Oregon.
Post by pokermind   » Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:40 pm

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OOPS, my mistake misread Ruby Ridge American Tragedy a TV movie that aired on those dates as the date of the shooting.
Poker
CPO Poker Mind Image and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.

"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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Re: Shooting in Oregon.
Post by pokermind   » Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:08 pm

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@ Daryl a map showing how much land the Federal government owns in each state:

Image

from http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/us/this-map-shows-how-much-land-the-government-owns-in-every-state

As can clearly be seen the Federal Government controls most of the land in the western states, and this is probably why there is a different out look compared to the eastern states.

Poker
CPO Poker Mind Image and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.

"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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Re: Shooting in Oregon.
Post by Daryl   » Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:45 pm

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Once again you supply good information to us outsiders. Is this so because the west was settled last, and the government had become stronger?

In Australia the British used the legal fiction of Terra Nullus to declare the indigenous people did't own the land which initially went to the Crown. The Crown then either sold or granted land over time. A similar situation existed to these ranchers with the Squatters. Wealthy people traveled great distances and squatted on vast areas building up stations (ranches). Eventually the government broke up these stations into liveable selections,but due to possession being 9/10 of the law, and the Squatters having great influence they retained grand central portions.

We still have situations where cattle breeders illegally access crown land in national parks. A friend of my brother, was fined heavily for this.




pokermind wrote:@ Daryl a map showing how much land the Federal government owns in each state:

Image

from http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/us/this-map-shows-how-much-land-the-government-owns-in-every-state

As can clearly be seen the Federal Government controls most of the land in the western states, and this is probably why there is a different out look compared to the eastern states.

Poker
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Re: Shooting in Oregon.
Post by jchilds   » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:23 am

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Of course it's a "be careful what you wish for" sort of situation, since any privatisation of said land will likely benefit political cronies and/or corporations instead of the people who perceive injustice in the status quo.
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Re: Shooting in Oregon.
Post by biochem   » Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:25 am

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pokermind wrote:
Shooting about 9:20 into the video.


Poker



I appreciate that. So many of these videos start at the incident itself and so much info is lost by not seeing what led up to it. A lot of incidents that look bad/good, look completely different when seen in context.
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