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On the Protection of Trade

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Re: On the Protection of Trade
Post by Theemile   » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:33 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Actually while they'd most likely lose a head to head fight against a big CA like Prinze Eugen the torpedoes were a great deterrent. Even fairly light convoy escorts were sometimes capable of keeping heavy units at bay by laying down smokescreens and threatening torpedo attacks if they closed.

Damage that even slowed a North Atlantic raider would make it's ultimate interception and destruction by heavier RN units (between it and it's home base) far likelier.


Well, they "could" be - If the ships were using US made torps in 1941, they were really only good for the scare value.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: On the Protection of Trade
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:21 pm

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I have no idea what the language of the Convention let the individual systems do long term with the SDF though I suspect that they will be transitioning into the RMN over time.

My own thought is that the different systems with the SEM Talbott Quadrant are mostly going to be sticking close to thier individual systems except where they could be needed for convoy or specifc relief/assistance for another system per the direction of the Quadrant Station Commander or Sr. Naval commander on site. Mostly, they will be left in their own ponds and continue to provide local protection, primarily because most of them don't have very much in the way of (if any) hypercapable ships.
Systems such as Rembrandt, which has (though we don't know what it has) a SDF that sounds like it has commerce protection (away from the planet) as part of it's mission, would likely already have the experience in dealing with at least piracy and patrolling. They were mentioned as a possible reenforcement at Pequot to provide additional support when the difficulties with New Tuscany were going on.
While any of the systems can could request help, if they went as far as asking for a former FF DD, I am guessing that they would have to be able to crew it from their own SDF.

As in my earlier opinion, it might make tactical sence if they could upgrade the quality and power by swapping a New/up-to-date and maintained FF ship for an existing aged unit in their own force.
IF, a big IF, they had enough trained people in their own SDF to crew it, they might be able field one in addition to their existing SDF units. It could make sense in terms of adding an anti-piracy/ internal Sector (NOT BF/FF) like the New Tuscan incendents appeared to be as it would allow for the RMN ships to continue in longer patrol sweeps instead of being tied down to individual systems.
I don't see SEM shifting older RMN ships from Silesia to replace Talbott Quadrant SDF ships as they then both have to replace the ships (if not the crews) in Silesia and have the Talbott crews trained up on the RMN gear.

Ultimately, the goal is to bring all of the SDF forces up to RMN standards and training. The sooner they can both provide that training plus cycle SDF people though tours on RMN ships etc, the better off everybody is. At the moment, for each person from an SDF that shifts to a tour on -probably Talbott station ships-in the RMN, someone is going to have to replace that person in the home system. That could be by an RMN trainer or "just" an exchange such as is done with GSN.

I have no idea when the actual transition is supposed to take place between being a system SFD and fully part of RMN. I suspect that there is a time frame and some agreed to transition matrix of what will be needed in the transition. Fairly clear is that former SDF ships are going to be both kept in the quadrant and held to more the anti-pirate/customs work until they are replaced (and scrapped) in favor of newer Manticore tech ships. The people in the former SDFs are going to have to demonstrate proficiency with training to progress with RMN should they eventually decide to stay in the Navy.
What they are NOT going to do is create a variation of a 2nd class navy for the Quadrant. It's all to be SEM/RMN. This is exactly the same thing as the discussion about the Quadrant Guard as planitary forces, though the tendency will be for the Guard to serve in the Quadrant though once into RMN (or Marines) the people are going to be going anyplaces they are requied.
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Re: On the Protection of Trade
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:36 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Actually while they'd most likely lose a head to head fight against a big CA like Prinze Eugen the torpedoes were a great deterrent. Even fairly light convoy escorts were sometimes capable of keeping heavy units at bay by laying down smokescreens and threatening torpedo attacks if they closed.

Damage that even slowed a North Atlantic raider would make it's ultimate interception and destruction by heavier RN units (between it and it's home base) far likelier.


Well, they "could" be - If the ships were using US made torps in 1941, they were really only good for the scare value.

Actually, amusingly, the obsolescent Mark 8 torpedo carried by the Lend Lease destroyers (like the flush-deck Wickes-class) didn't have the same problems the USN's front line Mark 14.

For one it didn't carry a magnetic exploder, so the issues around that were moot. Also the Mark 14's backup contact exploder primarily had problems because it was lifted unchanged off the older torpedoes (where it worked well) and placed into a faster torpedo with reevaluation or redesign. It couldn't handle the stresses of the higher speed collision; but it didn't have that problem in the slower Mark 8 it was designed for. And finally, also due to the lower speed, the Mark 8 didn't have the same kind of hydrodynamic pressure issues giving false readings to its depth gauge; so it has less tendency to run too deep.

Balancing that the Mark 8 still had some issues with launching and its gyroscopes; plus it's lower speed and lighter warhead meant it was harder to get a hit with it and the hits did less damage.
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Damage Or Destroy All The Enemies Space Ports ...
Post by HB of CJ   » Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:47 pm

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If there is no place to load or off load then the rest does not matter. In fact the Grand Alliance (GA) wants the Sollie League and the the other bad guys to invest in more bottoms and all other infrastructure related for more bottoms.

Blast the space ports. Render them non operational. You do not have to destroy, just screw them up. Lots and lots of targets for sure, but it does not take a big fleet or ship to slip inside range and do the dirty deed. Small ships better?

How many missiles or torps would a small warship need to do this? How about not even a warship but an armed merchant ship sneaking in? Lots of Sollie and other space ports. Also lots of suitable ships available cheaply to do the ruining?

Not fair? Oh yeah. Non symmetrical warfare. But understand the GA still does not have a chance here. The Sollies will still overwhelm the good guys. I see no way around this. Wonder how David Weber will handle this outcome? Yikes! :)
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Re: Damage Or Destroy All The Enemies Space Ports ...
Post by drothgery   » Fri Apr 08, 2016 7:28 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:Not fair? Oh yeah. Non symmetrical warfare. But understand the GA still does not have a chance here. The Sollies will still overwhelm the good guys. I see no way around this. Wonder how David Weber will handle this outcome? Yikes! :)
You can't get started on overwhelming the good guys if your entire existing fleet and all of your existing shipyards get blown to pieces before you even have a competitive warship designed, let alone put into production. And Haven, alone, is easily capable of doing this to the SLN 'now'.

Yeah, you can theoretically build a 'bolthole', but Bolthole was set up by Haven under the Committee, which was a totalitarian state with a paranoid in charge of security. The League is nominally a democracy, and its member states most certainly are. And League functionaries have a long history of being easily bribable. So no 'bolthole' created by the League will remain secret for the years necessary to build anything resembling a modern fleet.
Last edited by drothgery on Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On the Protection of Trade
Post by marklbailey   » Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:52 pm

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Evasive Routeing

The responses overnight were interesting. Jonathon S noted that in terms of the basic trade protection tactic, Evasive Routing; I think you're drastically underestimating the effectiveness of hyperspace in hiding transits. In essence, this is agreement with the postulate that in the Honorverse, normal hyperspace fulfils the evasive routeing function of reducing target density by dispersing shipping. There is a difference in scale of many orders of magnitude here, in relative terms the ratio of the ‘15 nm radius at which a merchant ship is visible at sea to size of the Southern Ocean’ is of course vastly larger than that which applies in the Honorverse’s fictional hyperspace.

Point or Chokepoint Trade Protection

‘The E’ noted that this applies (if at lesser orders of dispersal magnitude) on the boundary of a planetary system hypersphere boundary. Dispersal is certainly possible there and combined with the presence of numerous light warships can extract ruinous loss ratios for ‘U-boat/18th century privateer analogues’ in the same way convoy escorts inflicted ruinous loss ratios on German U-boats between September 1939 and May 1940. Essentially, this is the ‘choke point defence’ parallel. Choke point defence is a denial strategy and is particularly effective against threats where the threat is significant numbers of light, cheap guerre de corse units (the ‘U-boat/18th century privateer analogues’ - in this case the entirely obsolete SLN DD, CL and CA).

However, a ‘defended port’ which has no medium or heavy capability is quite vulnerable to a medium to heavy commerce raid. This is where a heavier force of some form is invaluable against a raiding squadron. That heavier force can be fixed defences (‘heavy guns’ in the form of pods) flotilla defences (‘torpedo boats/coastal submarines’ in the form of LACs) or heavier ships (the ‘Station Squadron’ in the form of the heavy component of the SDF). Which is optimum depends on the threat assessment. The Dominion of Australia got this exactly right pre-WWI with heavy coast defences at major ports, two small flotilla components (1 composed of TBD, the second of SS) to offer mobile protection to two ports at need, and a modern second-class capital ship with supporting modern trade protection cruisers. Admiral von Spee was fully deterred from entering Australian Station by this combination; indeed he was driven from the southern Pacific by HMAS Australia’s presence there. It was a ship he could not fight as he could not defeat it nor repair any damages received.

Here we get to a most vivid and tragic example of the value of even obsolete units in trade protection.

Coronel.

After being denied the more modern reinforcement he’d ordered (HMS Defence), Rear-Admiral Cradock knew that if he met the German Pacific Squadron, he and his little Squadron was doomed as his ships were obsolete and the German ships merely obsolescent (again, note the matter of tactical relativity). And that’s what occurred. Yet in pure trade protection terms Kit Cradock and the crews of HMS Good Hope and HMS Monmouth won a strategic victory. Albeit at terrible cost. The German Pacific Squadron exhausted so much ammunition that its ability to attack the vital Plate trade was made impossible. Worse, the loss of HMS Good Hope and HMS Monmouth with all hands was a severe blow to prestige, which forced the Admiralty to send the probable architect of Cradock’s crushing defeat (Sturdee) to rectify the situation. Which occurred at the Battle of the Falkland Islands in due course

The point there is that it does not take much to deter heavy raiders, as they have a critical vulnerability which is easy to exploit for deterrence purposes. They are a long way from home and cannot risk damage or excessive ammo consumption.

Theemile noted: all Honorverse ships are built for Mediterrean or Baltic sea conditions, not true Bluewater conditions like would be found deep in the N. Atlantic, with LACs being the equivalent of Brownwater or littoral missile/gunboats.

This strikes me as a decent analogy and a general rule, as does the comment on ‘grav wave escorts’. That’s actually supported by historical example. The Admiralty considered a specialised heavy convoy escort design in the late 1920s based on a slower (25kt IIRC) variant of the Cathedral class CA. It was rejected as too specialised for a new ship and the older, less efficient Elizabethan’s were earmarked for the role in the absence of elderly BB in reserve which had been scrapped to accord with the WNT.

It will have caveats (all general rules do) of course.

Theemile commented thusly as well: Brigade XO, what your mentioning seems a little different than the usual TQ proposal. Instead of "replacement" of the SDFs, it appears you are proposing "augmenting" them.

Well, of course. That’s the entire basis of ANY use of ex-SLN ships, or of reserve RMN, IAN or RH ships for that matter. There’s two types of augmentation:
1. As described, the ‘you can man an additional ship? Well, here’s one to man’ mode and,
2. the ‘that crew is too good for that ship and so is wasted on that ship. Here’s a better one to man instead’ mode.

I was a little surprised at the rapidity of the divergence on the other thread down the rabbit hole of ex-SLN units. A quick scan of the backstory showed any number of entrenched views and fixed positions, which explained both it and the 'interesting' interpretations of some of the things I wrote. C'est la guerre!

Theemile also noted: The long term question is how much local autonomy will the SDFs have long term (or now according to the Quadrant Charter) and do they still have the autonomy to make said requests now, or are they supposed to follow a pre-set line to form a consistant "quadrant guard" (less likely) or join the mainline RMN (most likely from David's comments).

While expected, this would actually be a shame. I say expected because Americans tend to be quite ignorant about Empire. That’s not an insult, I am quoting a seapower conference presentation by the noted American naval historian Norman Friedman at Brighton-le-Sands (Botany Bay) in about 1994. It was one of Norman’s early visits out here so he did some historical prep, and was astonished to realise that his assumptions about Australia’s role within the Empire were entirely false. His assumptions were based on the American colonial perceptions of the First British Empire, which collapsed in 1783. He stated that he realised he was ignorant of the philosophical and civilizational policies of the Second British Empire as it developed from 1838 after the Canadian Revolt. Lord Durham’s Report was its basis. It developed a policy of responsible self-government at all levels, which led naturally to the Dominion Concept (see John Darwin’s wonderful work on the Dominion Concept).

The current American Empire has copied this, formalising it in such things as the Compact of Free Association with the Federated States of Micronesia. I am an Imperial scholar of the Donald Mackenzie Schurman school, so using First British Empire models to create any form of autonomy reduction within the context of the SEM along First British Empire lines would be rather silly. But that’s hardly my call and I acknowledge Norman’s point at Brighton-le-Sands, where he described his discovery of how the Second British Empire was structured as ‘an epiphany’ because it was 'entirely unrecognised' in the US. And if Norman Friedman was subject to that set of false assumptions, it is certainly widespread. I have discussed that with other US naval and maritime historians at the NASOH Conference last year in Monterey, and they confirmed it. Fortunately, John Darwin’s excellent work is available to update such false assumptions.
References:
DARWIN, J., After Tamerlane: The Global History of Empire Since 1405 (2008)
DARWIN, J., The Empire Project: The Rise and Fall of the British World-System, 1830-1970 (2009)
DARWIN, J., 'A Third British Empire? the Dominion Idea in Imperial Politics', in Oxford History of the British Empire Vol IV: the Twentieth Century (Oxford, 1999) , pp.64-87
Full publications list: http://www.history.ox.ac.uk/faculty/sta ... tions.html

Well, my 30 minutes a day for discussion is up, so no more available time. More when possible. I have Widen’s Theorist of Maritime Strategy: Sir Julian Corbett and his Contribution to Military and Naval Thought and Lambert’s Planning Armageddon: British Economic Warfare and the First World War to read today! (Hey, it's more fun than reading ADM files!)

Cheers: Mark
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Re: On the Protection of Trade
Post by kzt   » Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:37 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:As in my earlier opinion, it might make tactical sence if they could upgrade the quality and power by swapping a New/up-to-date and maintained FF ship for an existing aged unit in their own force.
IF, a big IF, they had enough trained people in their own SDF to crew it, they might be able field one in addition to their existing SDF units. It could make sense in terms of adding an anti-piracy/ internal Sector (NOT BF/FF) like the New Tuscan incendents appeared to be as it would allow for the RMN ships to continue in longer patrol sweeps instead of being tied down to individual systems.

Consider a 3rd world ally of the US in 1990 who gets to trade their carefully maintained ww2 US DD for a 1985 production Soviet DD. Just the DD, no spare parts, no training, no logistics tail at all. How long will it remain more effective than their old DD?
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Re: On the Protection of Trade
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:26 pm

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[/quote]
Consider a 3rd world ally of the US in 1990 who gets to trade their carefully maintained ww2 US DD for a 1985 production Soviet DD. Just the DD, no spare parts, no training, no logistics tail at all. How long will it remain more effective than their old DD?[/quote]

The opinion was taken with the presumption that the FF/BF ship was actualy in good enough condition that it would be a credible upgrade to the SDF in question not that it was "new" but a piece of crap....big smile.

As far as spair parts, I just might happen to know where Manticore has a whole yard full of SLN DDs in varioius states of non-use and might even throw in one or two that might have an Alpha node or something missing along with the "usable" one. Knowing how some people in Manticore operate, they might even diliver the floating parts kits at the same time as the usable ship and let them be used for training (including stripping for parts and running drills) in some nice safe orbit near the planet that got the donation.

Humm, said the pirate captain.....XYZ not only has those two old warships we knew about, the now seem to have a SLN type DD on active patrol and there are two more tucked deep in the system with thier tactical systems working away and impellers hot. This is looking dam unhealthy, we're out of here.........
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Re: On the Protection of Trade
Post by marklbailey   » Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:58 pm

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http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/70/1
I can tell you right now that the RMN is already thinking in terms of extending its nodal defensive posture and relying on relatively cheap weapons to deal with relatively minor threats. A mix of LACs, missile pods, light combatants, and quick-response nodal forces is going to be far more cost-effective for them than trying to station sufficient combat power to stand off task force-level attacks in every critical system. They cannot be strong everywhere, so they will opt for overwhelming strength in the areas where they must be strong and a flexible, counter-attack-based posture in other areas.


This sums up the very basic, fundamental concept of DW’s trade protection system. It is, of course, derivative. It’s the same as the Second British Empire’s trade protection concept 1862-1914. That’s not a bad thing, BTW, as it gives a solid and known basis to the concept. Note that the previous concept of picket forces is also derivative. It is analogous to the French ‘maritime garrison’ concept. Which they still use, BTW, if on reduced scale these days.

Now let’s drill down a little, and recall my previous comments about ‘relativity of threat perceptions’

Note this sentence: the RMN is already thinking in terms of extending its nodal defensive posture and relying on relatively cheap weapons to deal with relatively minor threats.

Notice, please, that the relatively minor threat is assessed as such ‘ to the RMN’. What is a minor threat in the eyes of the RMN WILL NOT be so perceived in the eyes of the system involved. In their eyes it may range from serious to existential. An example: in the eyes of the Admiralty 1850-1870, the effect of a raid on the Colony of Victoria was a ‘relatively minor threat’. In the eyes of the Colony of Victoria, such a raid posed a serious to severe threat (remembering that their gold exports were enormous). The Admiralty response was that DW notes – they had a powerful fleet and in 1870 they sent a strong Flying Squadron to the Australasian Colonies. Which was welcomed by a strong, small local defence fleet built around a steam ship-of-the-line after passing through massive defences at the entrance to Port Phillip Bay.

Where did that come from? Well, the British strategy was most certainly not enough for the Victorians as they assessed their threat differently and were willing to pony up a hell of a lot of money to back up their views, and between 1950 and 1870 they fortified Port Melbourne to first-class status, built a small local-defence Navy (including the steam ship-of-the-line HMVS Nelson), and when the Flying Squadron arrived were in the process of accepting into service the most powerful ironclad coastal defence battleship in the world, HMVS Cerberus.

The point of saying this is that irrespective of what the RMN and SEM might think, local governments will maintain their own SDF to meet THEIR assessments of threat. While this caused headaches for the RMN Admiralty and SEM government, it is also exactly what they want to happen - these people are making a contribution to Imperial defence off their own bat. This is actually highly complementary to what DW says above in every sense. It allows for all sorts of experimentation in tech, ship types, SDF make-ups etc, and the plot device possibilities are endless.

In trade protection terms, it relieves a sizeable chunk of the fiscal burden on the Imperial government. In Imperial terms it’s all upside. It allows each system to demonstrate its Imperial solidarity without exposing the RMN to what DW has rightly described as the lethally dangerous security threat inherent in regional access to their highest-tech systems and capabilities:
And there is another, far less altruistic reason to encourage civilian infrastructure growth as the means to jumpstart the economies of the Talbott Cluster and Silesia: security. For the foreseeable future, the security arrangements -- and I'm speaking here of "security" in the counter-intelligence sense, not in the sense of fighting off hostile fleets -- in the Cluster and in Silesia are going to be causing lots and lots of ulcers down to ONI's home offices. In Silesia, you're dealing with the leftovers of a crony capitalism kleptocracy. There are going to be a great many people who feel no special sense of loyalty to the Star Kingdom, and who see an opportunity to get richer than Croesus by flogging Manticoran military technology to the Sollies (or, while hostilities are still underway, to Haven, for that matter). The same problems are going to apply in Talbott, where people like Tonkovic and her fellow oligarchs are going to see the same opportunities and face the same temptations. It's certainly fair to argue that there are people in the "Old Star Kingdom" who are as inherently dishonest as anyone in Talbott or Silesia. However, that overlooks the fact that both Talbott and Silesia are new to the Manticoran system, without the institutional framework of long-standing loyalty and patriotism and, at least as importantly, without the same degree of penetration and coverage by Manticoran security personnel and agencies who are intimately familiar with the players in the societies in question. Before the Star Kingdom can feel confident in its security in these newly acquired star systems, it's going to have to fully integrate the existing intelligence agencies in those star systems with its own pre-existing intelligence and security services. Until that happens, it would be criminally negligent for them to be building highly sensitive hardware in those areas.
(See: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... ngton/46/1)

The ‘classic’ shape for such local forces when fully developed (which takes a long time) is a small number of modern second class capital ships, after transitioning via a ‘light local coast defence force and coastal defences’ to that plus obsolescent former capital ships of the Imperial power (guess where Victoria got HMVS Nelson from) to a modern trade protection force based on locally produced vessels plus imported ones, usually a bit behind the Imperial Navy’s current best, but not that far behind. Less ‘trustworthy’ systems will not put that sort of effort in (Silesian systems, untrustworthy TQ systems etc). This building of trust proceeds in the way DW says above, he’s obviously done some study of Imperial dynamics, and yes it takes a long time because it depends on funded ACTIONS, not words.

Now, all of this is not to say that the navies of the Honorverse won't eventually build something which might once have been classified as a "fast battleship." If they do so, however, it's going to be because of "bracket creep" and changes in the minimum platform size to continue to fill existing tactical niches. What is much more likely to happen than for anyone to design a "battleship" which anyone but a lunatic would take into action against true wallers is that someone (like, he said innocently, the RMN) will design a "battlecruiser" whose size will fall well into the tonnage range of a relatively small battleship as of the time of The Short Victorious War. This ship, however, will not be intended to engage, hold off, or deter "proper" ships of the wall. It will be intended to do precisely what battlecruisers have always done under Manticoran doctrine: kill cruisers, protect/raid commerce, carry out deep-penetration raids on deep-space industry, etc.. If they have absolutely no choice but to engage ships of the wall, they will be far more capable in that role than smaller, older battlecruisers might have been, but that doesn't mean that it will ever be a Good Idea. If the RMN builds such ships it will scale battlecruisers up rather than scaling superdreadnoughts down. Either way, the traditional "battleship" as a sort of intermediate step between cruisers and wallers will almost certainly disappear from the design philosophies of all "deep-space" navies. It's quite possible that something in that range will continue to be built by second-and third-rate navies as the equivalent of a "coastal defense battleship," but no one with pretensions to power projection or with large areas (and the resources to match) to protect will use such vessels.


This is precisely the form of second class modern capital ship SDF’s will aspire to. They are thoroughly useful ships for a trade protection/local defence force. Most important is their deterrence effect. If System X is known to have a modern little pocket navy which includes a pair of these ‘fast battleships’ on top of the local ‘coast defences’ and light forces then the raiding group has to be so big as to make the game not worth the candle. It's no longer a cheap option against that level of local naval force.
This was the basis of Australian strategic assessment from 1887 onwards, and it worked because it was backed up by a strategic response capability of the Imperial Navy as well. In this case, that’s represented by the ‘nodal RMN forces’.

It then gets very interesting from the Imperial Navy perspective. A SDF which has developed this level of capability – and only the best of them will – has just proven that it’s a fully trustworthy strategic partner AND it has solved the security problems mentioned above.

Even better, it has ship types and capabilities the Imperial Navy will never develop as they are niche capabilities built to meet local perceptions of threat. A modern SDF with this ‘modern fast BB’ capability is also a very capable deep raiding force itself, able to shatter (say) SLN picket forces and escort forces composed of elderly BC and CA. I am not saying that the RMN will use such SDF in that manner, but it is a strategic option and it’s an immensely powerful internal political message inside the Empire. Of course, they have to replace the SDF in its local defence role should it be off a-viking, but a visit by a Flying Squadron with a couple of older capital ship types can easily do that, and again that’s a powerful message in terms of intra-Imperial politics.

Such an option might not be worth it from the RMN military outcomes perspective, but might be so attractive politically in terms of intra-Imperial politics that it's actually a no-brainer. If (say), the Rembrandt SDF was able to do that after X years of development inside the Empire on their own shilling, then it's a no-brainer to approve a Rembrandt SDF Squadron of the RMN raid because of the impact that will have on the other TQ governments. They will ALL want to work towards the local status the Rembrandt government just obtained.

Well, that’s my 30 minutes again. More later.
(BTW I am not entirely convinced by Nick Lambert’s argument in his Planning Armageddon: British Economic Warfare and the First World War)

Cheers: mark
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Re: On the Protection of Trade
Post by Duckk   » Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:52 pm

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If you look at the date of that last infodump, that was well before AAC was published. David was clearly talking about the Nike-class there. The RMN is not remotely interested in resurrecting the battleship type for system defense.

Second, there is not going to be some sort of two tier system going on with regards to system defense. The RMN is going to be responsible for defending every member system, and won't be shuffling off duties to a second tier defense force.
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