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Are high minimum wages ethical?

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Re: Are high minimum wages ethical?
Post by HB of CJ   » Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:03 am

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It used to be that hunger had a focusing way of concentrating ones motivation when starting out in the job market. There was no welfare. There was no nanny state. There was little or no socialism in the world.

Nothing was given out freely, thus diluting its value. A person had an excellent choice. He could work or he could starve. Criminal activity usually ended quickly and permanently. Working harder resulted in less hunger.

Pretty much a meritocracy. If a worker was exceptionally good he got a higher wage. This was also a motivation to stay in school and learn something conductive to earning a higher wage. But a high minimum wage is dangerous.

But, it seems to fit the socialist notion that all people are equal. Hardly so in the real wage earning world. A worker is worth whatever his value to his employer. Working or starving had a way of uplifting a worker. Respectfully.

I see it from an employers point of view. Socialists see it from a warm and fuzzy dangerous point of view. A high required minimum wage is not the way to go. We need to return to old basic human values. A meritocracy is one of them.
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Re: Are high minimum wages ethical?
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:57 am

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Donnachaidh wrote:Go educate yourself about the way workers (especially factory workers) were treated during the industrial revolution in the USA and about FDR's New Deal before you speak more on this.

The fact that so many people such as yourself ignore is that the free market has proven many times that it will not protect the average worker and will do everything it can to increase its profits regardless of any morality (there have been occasional companies that don't but the ones that employ the majority of workers do).


Yep and every company town was a bad deal. Except they weren't.

So Ford paid his workers so much (compared to average wages) to work on that assembly line for what reason?

[EDIT] Or my job pitching hay bales paid 10% more than state minimum wage at that time. Despite being a farm at minimum not even being applicable. To some idiot teenager with next to no real skills. No worries, that job only marginally exists any more. Wonder why they went to self stacking and 1 ton bales? Well except to provide for the horse farms.[end edit]

Read recent history. America declared war on poverty in 1960's. Largest single winner the 1%, every time.

Much like My current President's results. Every single president and Congress since then income by the one percent is better than the rest.

Look at the IRS data I have provided links in the past. But this time we will go better! Right.

T2M
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Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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Re: Are high minimum wages ethical?
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:09 am

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How is one nationwide minimum wage ethical.

Trusting the US governement on this one.

http://www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/ ... 4/41,12,06

Lets you compare a bunch of stuff. Lots of interesting things in there. All kinds of fun to be had.

Cost of a house in CA $371k, OR $237K, FL $156K.

"Per capita income in past 12 months (in 2014 dollars), 2010-2014" OR $27,173, FL $26,499, CA $29,906.

Not surprisingly "Owner-occupied housing unit rate, 2010-2014" CA 54.8%, OR 61.5%, FL 66.1%.

Surprising is the "Median gross rent, 2010-2014" OR $894, FL $998, CA $1,243.

Most surprising to me. "High school graduate or higher, percent of persons age 25 years+, 2010-2014" OR 89.5%, FL 86.5%, CA 81.5%.

What the tech center(supposedly) of the nation only graduates 81.5% of its kids from HIGH SCHOOL! Well I guess they could have moved there or here.

Small wonder that between 2010 and 2015 FL had 53% more population growth than CA.

Interesting diversion for me wasn't really what I expected to find.

T2M
-----------------------
Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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Re: Are high minimum wages ethical?
Post by Daryl   » Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:55 am

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I won't posr a wall of text, but unfortunately once again I disagree with HB.
Most primitive societies had welfare systems, whereby those who can't support themselves were supported by their village. In medieval times there were more formal systems where the less fortunate were looked after by the lord.
In early industrial times there were poorhouses and workhouses, not very nice but better than the street.

Humanity has progressively become more compassionate as standards of living have risen. Looking after the less fortunate even has economic benefits.
We have all been socialists to some extent for a long time. The US is a socialist country, live with it.

If workers don't produce enough to earn a living wage there are many avenues to resolve the situation, from dismissal to retraining to workplace redesign.
The whole concept of working poor who are paid a pittance while the top end of town enters the 1% from the sweat of their brow is repugnant.
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Re: Are high minimum wages ethical?
Post by HB of CJ   » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:30 pm

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Daryl; Respectfully, I believe you are confusing charity with welfare. Remember the old saying ... "Cold As Charity"?. Charity was private, what little there was of it.

Welfare has pulled out all the drive of those who live on it. I still work about 16 hours per week locally as a RN. That is all I can do. Getting very old very quick.

But, and this may be important, I do receive charity from my family. We are gathering together under one household. This is something new. Pooling our money helps.

It also allow me to help home school our grand kids. Fun. Exhausting. Our gathering together here in SW OR USA is something new for us. Didn't used to have to do it.

Our rural life style is perhaps rare or even unique in the USA. Our general and specific situations out here are also rare or unique. We still pay way too many taxes.

Charity is private and usually quite limited and temporary. Compassionate. Good. Welfare punishes the tax paying public with a broad tax bill. Not good. Socialism is bad.

Again, sometimes the old ways are better. Starving had a way of focusing ones drive to succeed. There should be zero welfare. But that implies an expanding economy.

Another subject. So many things coming together. Yikes!

Respectfully.
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Re: Are high minimum wages ethical?
Post by Daryl   » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:35 am

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Obviously there are cultural differences here.
Welfare and charity both provide assistance to the less fortunate, and both involve using money or goods from the well off to provide that support. Charity is voluntary and welfare is usually government run, and I'd argue that overall it is voluntary because most voters pay taxes and would vote otherwise if they disagreed.

We do have charity here as in Salvation Army, Lifeline, and others. To us accepting charity is shameful, whereas welfare is like a bank, you pay taxes in the good times and it comes back when you need it.

As to the least deserving, the charity people seem to be those who contribute most to the dregs of society, as the others are too proud to accept help over the normal welfare net levels.
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Re: Are high minimum wages ethical?
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:48 am

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Why is charity something to be reviled but welfare to be accepted. Both use other people's money to assist those less fortunate? As you assert both are by and large voluntary. This point might be argued, but let's let it stand for the moment.

From your description of the two, it appears that you guys down under view accepting charity as an admission that one is somehow lacking. Whereas taking welfare is simply a right granted by government and so is something one is due.

Since both take from those that have money and give to those that have less of it, I don't see the distinction. Heck, I would argue that since charity is voluntary on an individual level, charitable donations reflect a personal connection between people. That is worthwhile in an context.

Daryl wrote:Obviously there are cultural differences here.
Welfare and charity both provide assistance to the less fortunate, and both involve using money or goods from the well off to provide that support. Charity is voluntary and welfare is usually government run, and I'd argue that overall it is voluntary because most voters pay taxes and would vote otherwise if they disagreed.

We do have charity here as in Salvation Army, Lifeline, and others. To us accepting charity is shameful, whereas welfare is like a bank, you pay taxes in the good times and it comes back when you need it.

As to the least deserving, the charity people seem to be those who contribute most to the dregs of society, as the others are too proud to accept help over the normal welfare net levels.
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Re: Are high minimum wages ethical?
Post by Daryl   » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:46 pm

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Agree partially PeterZ. To us charity implies some paternalism, and an obligation to be grateful and respectful to our betters. Welfare is a right that was fought for and there is no disgrace in accepting it.
As you say in charity there is a connection between people, and recipients don't see it as an equal relationship.
I'm fortunate enough to not have to take either, but would personally see no problem with welfare if needed, but would be ashamed to accept charity.
As one of the haves, I accept that some of my tax goes to fund welfare, but only give to charities anomonously.
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Re: Are high minimum wages ethical?
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:28 pm

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Sorry, I don't see it that way. If government gives someone money, they must first take it (voluntarily or not) from someone else. A welfare recipient who isn't grateful for the help, doesn't recognize that money could have helped someone else. Feeling that you are due financial assistance means that others owe you something. They don't. In that way charity is exactly like welfare.

Daryl wrote:Agree partially PeterZ. To us charity implies some paternalism, and an obligation to be grateful and respectful to our betters. Welfare is a right that was fought for and there is no disgrace in accepting it.
As you say in charity there is a connection between people, and recipients don't see it as an equal relationship.
I'm fortunate enough to not have to take either, but would personally see no problem with welfare if needed, but would be ashamed to accept charity.
As one of the haves, I accept that some of my tax goes to fund welfare, but only give to charities anomonously.
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Re: Are high minimum wages ethical?
Post by HB of CJ   » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:42 am

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The nasty thing about Government Welfare is that it is practically encouraged by the gov. No, make that welfare is always encouraged by your government. Welfare is so common here that it is practically expected to be encouraged to be offered gov welfare.

Those on welfare do not understand or care that somebody is paying for their welfare check. It does not come out of thin air. Many tax payers must work hard to earn money which in turn is taxed. Getting welfare no longer has ANY social stigma attached.

Welfare has numbed the average new job taker into believing that any minimum wage job must demand a outrageous high wage. If not, then just go back on welfare. Around and around. Handouts are now expected be either welfare or a horrible high minimum wage.

The high artificial minimum wage and high amounts of "free" welfare have created a nasty situation where nobody wants to work anymore. Not for a minimum wage. Just go on welfare. Lots of free money. This wipes out any incentive from new workers.

We have painted ourselves into a socialist corner. No way out. The paint is slow drying. The commonality of these two nasty things, welfare and a high minimum wage is self cycling. Both will continue to go up. More government control. Less common sense.

And that is exactly the situation elected Politicians want. This encourages more votes for more free stuff from the government. The problem is the tax payers must pay the burden. Very wrong indeed. The high minimum wage is NOT the road to utopia. Respectfully.
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