Are high minimum wages ethical?

The E wrote:It must be great to live in a world like yours, ttm. Where noone is ever forced to take a dead-end job and opportunities are always available to everyone.

That is a rather dismissive statement.

Have you ever worked in a factory? I have I got the hell out as fast as I could. That farm for me was a dead end job. Worked great for an ignorant teenager. Not a way I wanted live my life. College another dead end I spent way to much money figuring out. Ever piss off your boss and get to spend 8 hours a night in a guard tower on an empty recycling storage yard? US Navy taught me a lot of lessons that was one. Yeah still was a good thing and would say the same to the same boss with the same result. It was kind of nice in a way he was on the ship and I was somewhere else. That last job in the Navy working a desk really taught me I didn't want another job. But then again I had already planned not to have another job.

Opportunities are there. The thing is you have to work for them.

There are 5,600,000 jobs in the US that can't be outsourced over seas. Nobody is taking them.

Again "People don't plan to fail they fail to plan." I have had a huge number of plans fail. Then I remember DR Napoleon Hill's book and every failure is a chance for success.

Really do expect better from you,
T2M

For general minor education, Australia does have a value as Annachie spoke about, that an adult full time job must provide enough to support a family in basic circumstances. This comes from "The Harvester Judgement 1907". Nothing about whether some plutocrat can afford it.
Here very few people are on it as each industry has its own award, and most people have some skills that put them above it anyway.

In 1891 at Barcaldine in the far west of my Australian state the first Labor (Labour in UK) Party was formed under the Tree of Knowledge (a eucalypt), and we do hold to the egalitarian values that came from that. Even our conservatives don't dare contradict them.

Advantages include - aid to decentralisation as if it's the same everywhere go where the living is cheaper, a fair go for everyone, lower incarceration rates, and we haven't had a recession since July 1990.

thinkstoomuch wrote:

The E wrote:It must be great to live in a world like yours, ttm. Where noone is ever forced to take a dead-end job and opportunities are always available to everyone.

That is a rather dismissive statement.

Yes, it is. Just like your statement that it would be laughable to support a family on minimum wage was. Because that idea represents a fundamental betrayal of everything baby boomers have preached and are preaching about employment. Sure, there are always entry-level jobs, jobs you give to some kid who wants to earn a bit more money to get through school or increase his or her allowance or whatever; jobs, in other words, where it is not expected that people with families even apply.

But that's not what these jobs are. If you're working 40 hours a week or more, that should be enough to exist on. It should be enough to be able to not only live day to day, but also build a few longterm assets or reserves.

Have you ever worked in a factory? I have I got the hell out as fast as I could. That farm for me was a dead end job. Worked great for an ignorant teenager. Not a way I wanted live my life.

I have worked in factories, warehouses and retail. I have worked for minimum wage for several years of my life.

Opportunities are there. The thing is you have to work for them.

What does "work for them" mean? Does it mean willingness to relocate across the country? Does it mean getting good education? Does it mean willingness to suck it up and accept a job that doesn't pay enough to live on because hey, it's a job at least?

When I was working all those shitty jobs, I desired nothing more than to move on to better things. I couldn't, however. Those jobs, at the end of the day, left me too drained to actually pursue what I wanted to do.

Understand this about me: If I had been born american, if I had lived my life in the US? I would have died 10 years ago. Suicide, probably. Only the fact that we have a working national health system here in Germany as well as a functioning welfare system has allowed me to be here today. As a result, I thoroughly detest people who believe that systems like that are, in some way, unnecessary or undesirable. Because, as far as I am concerned, as far as the people I have talked to in similar situations are concerned, the insinuation that anyone who is on welfare or in a dead-end job has only themselves to blame or is in some way lazy is blatantly false. Not for everyone, not by a long shot.

Now that I actually have a career, I see no reason to deny others access to the same help I had.

And concerning minimum wage: Given the increasingly horrifying gini coefficient in the US, the insistence that wages need to be lower or not be raised reeks of profiteering and hypocrisy.

No Big E you wouldn't be the person you are if you grew up in the US. I would not be the person I am if I grew up in Germany. Its called nature/nurture and there are planetary sized differences between the two countries. You can't apply one to the other.

Only thing I got to say is. As I am NOW "I am DAMN glad Grandpa and Grandma got on that boat from Germany." Well also DAMN glad other Grandpa and Grandma got off that boat from Italy. Both around the turn of the last century. I have visited both places and that was enough I don't want to live there.

Thinking you know what you would do when it is a totally different culture is either serious arrogance or failure to comprehend. Might as well ask what Hitler would have been like if he grew up in the US at the turn of the last century.

Everything else is supposition.



So what is an Internship in Germany or Australia? Do you even have them? Why is it important? DO we have them in the US? What is their purpose if we do? How about apprenticeships? Again if we have them what are their purpose?

I am not being dismissive. Do you think a 105 hours of farm work is easy? Get a clue. At that time I could have cared less about the rate (time and half are you joking it was a farm). I was earning my own money as a 16 year old living at home.

You know very little about this country and make grand sweeping statements.

I never even collected unemployment. That was for people with real needs. Not some punk kid like me. Welfare ...

Whatever,
T2M

thinkstoomuch wrote:No Big E you wouldn't be the person you are if you grew up in the US. I would not be the person I am if I grew up in Germany. Its called nature/nurture and there are planetary sized differences between the two countries. You can't apply one to the other.

There are enough parallels between our two society that I can tell you that someone with my medical history is very unlikely to end up in the same place.

Thinking you know what you would do when it is a totally different culture is either serious arrogance or failure to comprehend. Might as well ask what Hitler would have been like if he grew up in the US at the turn of the last century.

Everything else is supposition.

Of course it is. But it's not impossible to imagine.

So what is an Internship in Germany or Australia? Do you even have them? Why is it important? DO we have them in the US? What is their purpose if we do?

You seem like a bit out of touch. Of course there are internships. Their purpose was to get people into the workplace to get a taste of what actual work in a given field.

Of course, with the way you guys have fucked up worker's rights over the years, internships are now a way for people to get people to work for the mere promise of a permanent position without adequate pay, but that's a different story.

How about apprenticeships? Again if we have them what are their purpose?

...to teach people the ins and outs of a given trade?

Are you seriously asking these questions?

I am not being dismissive. Do you think a 105 hours of farm work is easy? Get a clue. At that time I could have cared less about the rate (time and half are you joking it was a farm). I was earning my own money as a 16 year old living at home.

I never intended to imply that what you did was easy. And yes, saying that minimum wage shouldn't be enough to support a family is being dismissive.

You know very little about this country and make grand sweeping statements.

I never even collected unemployment. That was for people with real needs. Not some punk kid like me. Welfare ...

And yet you feel qualified to make grand sweeping statements about what people who do have to rely on unemployment or welfare are like.

The E wrote:...snip...

Boy I sure am glad you know so much more about my country than I do.

All I was showing was that minimum wage jobs are not normally held by people in the US who are supporting a family. And looky there if they do they qualify for food stamps. ect and so forth so they still aren't.

And if you were, my first impression is man Germany sure must suck.

Of course health care just sucks in my America. My friend, who really doesn't have a clue money wise, needs to new hips since 2010. Oh that's right they were replaced then for free. Just like his knee a year before that. Imagine that.

Minimum wage in the US IS NOT MEANT TO SUPPORT A FAMILY.

Plain and simple.

Think we will just have to agree to disagree.

BIG E THINKS MINIMUM WAGE IS MEANT TO SUPPORT A FAMILY IN GERMANY.

I am done. Well with this subject. Still do value your input on other things even liked this discussion to be honest.

Have fun,
T2M

I do believe that you have summed up the difference. In developed countries the minimum wage is determined on what is needed to support a small family in basic circumstances, while in the US it is determined by what the employers can get away with. While the gap between the haves and have nots is too wide and widening everywhere, it is worse in the US.

We have traineeships and apprenticeships where people are paid less while training, and if they have to support a family at the time the government makes up the difference.

Internships are a relatively new concept here, and regarded with suspicion as to the top end of town ripping off desperate people. A few US based companies have had a shock being ordered to retro pay full wages to those taken advantage of.

I too have worked in lousy jobs earning just enough for us to survive, but didn't need charity or welfare to get through. I do agree that depite them being low status and wage, you often work so hard it is difficult to summon the energy to get a better job.

Daryl wrote:I do believe that you have summed up the difference. In developed countries the minimum wage is determined on what is needed to support a small family in basic circumstances, while in the US it is determined by what the employers can get away with. While the gap between the haves and have nots is too wide and widening everywhere, it is worse in the US.

We have traineeships and apprenticeships where people are paid less while training, and if they have to support a family at the time the government makes up the difference.

Internships are a relatively new concept here, and regarded with suspicion as to the top end of town ripping off desperate people. A few US based companies have had a shock being ordered to retro pay full wages to those taken advantage of.

I too have worked in lousy jobs earning just enough for us to survive, but didn't need charity or welfare to get through. I do agree that depite them being low status and wage, you often work so hard it is difficult to summon the energy to get a better job.

Not a problem with this whole post except. "It is what the employers can get away with."

It is what people are willing to settle for.

Really is philosophical point that is not readily understood in other parts of the world. Truly gets to the big government to take care of the people or people to take care of themselves. Just like tips. People reward good work and not poor.

It really is like talking to a blind man about blue.



Minimum wage jobs in the US replace the apprenticeships and such for the most part. An Apprentice Carpenter for example is earning much more than the minimum wage. Of course an apprentice carpenter (member of the union) is more skilled than 90% of the people out there who think they know what they are doing with wood. That Union used to do its job, no current contacts, not going to claim what I don't know. Average starts at more than your minimum wage after conversion.



Yes some employers will take advantage of everything they can, Alabama Farmers using illegals, of course to provide cheap food and stay in business they have to. One of them treadmills. CA tech companies abusing the H1B. Which I find much more reprehensible but where is the rhetoric and excitement about that. Back at about page 30 its legal after all, right.



But a minimum wage job should be just that a training opportunity.



Just to be clear again not even grocery stores here pay minimum wage to employees if they want to keep their customers much less even hire people.

Hell I still haven't had a minimum wage job even when I pumped gas(and unemployment here was over 10%) when service stations had full service (though OR and NJ still do, talk about a silly law).

Closest I came was when I was a Seaman Recruit but that was a salary and they gave 3 hots and a cot. If you were married you qualified for additional allowances, (seemed dreadfully unfair to me then.) As a recruiter it was one of them things I stressed. Money was going to be tight for those who were married. Along with in two days I am going to be your second most hated person, when I dropped them at MEPS.



I do wonder about Walmart but not a question you really can ask. Not that I visit them much, see above about keeping customers. Ones near me suck and I will spend more to get better quality and better help when I have a question. Wandering around a store to find where they have hidden the ... is not my idea of a profitable use of my time.



Same way that in America when the Government froze wages the companies had to find away to get quality people. All those jobs with fringe benefits. Like company payed health care.

Nope don't want to be like the rest of the worldThank you very much.

Have a good night,
T2M

Not saying you should be the same as the rest of the world, and not insisting that either way is right. Admittedly I personally believe a liveable wage is a better concept,but each to their own.

Fundamental difference is "what people are prepared to settle for". To us that is demeaning and insulting to (for example) a father trying to support his family. He shouldn't have to accept a pittance for a hard week's work, that concept should have died a century ago. As it is, employers naturally have an unfair advantage when hiring, and governments have a role in evening up the power relationship.

Actually "It is what the employers can get away with." is closer to accurate considering that they legally can't pay less than that and that's all they pay. Also, for your information, here are a few quotes from Franklin Roosevelt (the president that signed the first minimum wage law in the US) about minimum wage:

1933, Statement on National Industrial Recovery Act wrote:No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.

1933, Statement on National Industrial Recovery Act wrote:By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living.

1937, Message to Congress upon introduction of the Fair Labor Standards Act wrote:All but the hopelessly reactionary will agree that to conserve our primary resources of man power, government must have some control over maximum hours, minimum wages, the evil of child labor and the exploitation of unorganized labor.

Retrieved from http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/07/f-d-r-makes-the-case-for-the-minimum-wage/

thinkstoomuch wrote:Not a problem with this whole post except. "It is what the employers can get away with."

It is what people are willing to settle for.

Really is philosophical point that is not readily understood in other parts of the world. Truly gets to the big government to take care of the people or people to take care of themselves. Just like tips. People reward good work and not poor.

It really is like talking to a blind man about blue.



Minimum wage jobs in the US replace the apprenticeships and such for the most part. An Apprentice Carpenter for example is earning much more than the minimum wage. Of course an apprentice carpenter (member of the union) is more skilled than 90% of the people out there who think they know what they are doing with wood. That Union used to do its job, no current contacts, not going to claim what I don't know. Average starts at more than your minimum wage after conversion.



Yes some employers will take advantage of everything they can, Alabama Farmers using illegals, of course to provide cheap food and stay in business they have to. One of them treadmills. CA tech companies abusing the H1B. Which I find much more reprehensible but where is the rhetoric and excitement about that. Back at about page 30 its legal after all, right.



But a minimum wage job should be just that a training opportunity.



Just to be clear again not even grocery stores here pay minimum wage to employees if they want to keep their customers much less even hire people.

Hell I still haven't had a minimum wage job even when I pumped gas(and unemployment here was over 10%) when service stations had full service (though OR and NJ still do, talk about a silly law).

Closest I came was when I was a Seaman Recruit but that was a salary and they gave 3 hots and a cot. If you were married you qualified for additional allowances, (seemed dreadfully unfair to me then.) As a recruiter it was one of them things I stressed. Money was going to be tight for those who were married. Along with in two days I am going to be your second most hated person, when I dropped them at MEPS.



I do wonder about Walmart but not a question you really can ask. Not that I visit them much, see above about keeping customers. Ones near me suck and I will spend more to get better quality and better help when I have a question. Wandering around a store to find where they have hidden the ... is not my idea of a profitable use of my time.



Same way that in America when the Government froze wages the companies had to find away to get quality people. All those jobs with fringe benefits. Like company payed health care.

Nope don't want to be like the rest of the worldThank you very much.

Have a good night,
T2M