Are high minimum wages ethical?

Donnachaidh wrote:Actually "It is what the employers can get away with." is closer to accurate considering that they legally can't pay less than that and that's all they pay. Also, for your information, here are a few quotes from Franklin Roosevelt (the president that signed the first minimum wage law in the US) about minimum wage:

...snip for brevity...

So then I did work a minimum wage job. Except I didn't. fails the first test.

Interesting.

So have you worked a minimum wage job in the state of Oregon?

T2M

Since we are arguing the relative merits of pay.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33613246

Interesting survey from the UK.

Notice the title.

"How do people justify earning more than others?"

Surprisingly it seems to be a fairly balanced piece. Which I did not expect.

Have fun,
T2M

I'm not following what you mean about working a minimum wage job.

I have worked several minimum wage jobs, from food service (cooking and register) to delivering packages to landscaping. Though the worst was either cleaning up homeless camps or clearing drainage ditches full of stagnant water and rotting vegetation/trash.

thinkstoomuch wrote:

Donnachaidh wrote:Actually "It is what the employers can get away with." is closer to accurate considering that they legally can't pay less than that and that's all they pay. Also, for your information, here are a few quotes from Franklin Roosevelt (the president that signed the first minimum wage law in the US) about minimum wage:

...snip for brevity...

So then I did work a minimum wage job. Except I didn't. fails the first test.

Interesting.

So have you worked a minimum wage job in the state of Oregon?

T2M

The E wrote:It must be great to live in a world like yours, ttm. Where noone is ever forced to take a dead-end job and opportunities are always available to everyone.

Now you've gone and woke up one of my pet peeves.

There are no "dead-end jobs" -- only dead-end people. This is still a free country! Unsatisfied with your current job? Get up off your dead ass, acquire the knowledge and skills to qualify for a better one, and then go GET a better job. Don't demand to be paid a "living wage" for a job that is not worth it either to an employer or to the economy, that could be done by a trained monkey.

If employers are forced to pay a "living wage" for jobs that are not worth that much, it will cause inflation and it will continue until the money is devalued to the jobs' real worth - at which point it will no longer be a "living wage" and you will demand another increase. It becomes the Red Queen's Race - it takes all the running you can do just to stay where you are.

There has to be a bottom to start at. Some kid just out of high school with no knowledge, no skills, no experience and no work history is not worth a "living wage" that can support a middle-class family alone. If forbidden to pay the kid what he's really worth, employers won't hire him. They will eliminate the entry-level jobs that don't require knowledge, skills and experience. The bottom rungs of the career ladder will be gone.

My first job was stacking boxes in a warehouse for $2.45 an hour. That was NOT a "living wage" even then. I went to night school, and after a year and a half was able to get a better job both because I had acquired useful skills and because that "menial" job provided me with a work history, proved that I could do some job successfully.
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Most people that "can't work" just have backside problems - they can't pry it off the couch.

Imaginos1892 wrote:Now you've gone and woke up one of my pet peeves.

There are no "dead-end jobs" -- only dead-end people. This is still a free country! Unsatisfied with your current job? Get up off your dead ass, acquire the knowledge and skills to qualify for a better one, and then go GET a better job. Don't demand to be paid a "living wage" for a job that is not worth it either to an employer or to the economy, that could be done by a trained monkey.

If employers are forced to pay a "living wage" for jobs that are not worth that much, it will cause inflation and it will continue until the money is devalued to the jobs' real worth - at which point it will no longer be a "living wage" and you will demand another increase. It becomes the Red Queen's Race - it takes all the running you can do just to stay where you are.

There has to be a bottom to start at. Some kid just out of high school with no knowledge, no skills, no experience and no work history is not worth a "living wage" that can support a middle-class family alone. If forbidden to pay the kid what he's really worth, employers won't hire him. They will eliminate the entry-level jobs that don't require knowledge, skills and experience. The bottom rungs of the career ladder will be gone.

My first job was stacking boxes in a warehouse for $2.45 an hour. That was NOT a "living wage" even then. I went to night school, and after a year and a half was able to get a better job both because I had acquired useful skills and because that "menial" job provided me with a work history, proved that I could do some job successfully.
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Most people that "can't work" just have backside problems - they can't pry it off the couch.

Again there is a huge difference in how it is looked at culturally.

There because it is "a living wage" businesses don't pay more and many more people work them.

My first thought when Big E said he had worked a minimum wage job as an adult was incredibly sad. Here a articulate well spoken (if text translates to speech) person working a job that will kill him.

My thoughts the first time I read that was much worse. Here is a guy much better at communicating in a second language than I am in my first. Much more organized than I. Yet I never worked for minimum wage and he did as a veteran and an adult.

But that is the American view on things. It does not match where he is and what he has to deal with.

I never walked in them shoes and I don't want to.

Like I said it is typified by giving tips to a waitress or the guy who used to pump gas. A gal or guy who goes the extra gets more money. To the rest of the world why should I give more money. Isn't it demeaning or why is that even necessary.

Which coincidentally was the restaurants first response (in most places enacting the laws) to stay in business. No tipping allowed! People already earn "a living wage."

Failing to understand what customers like me give a tip for.

Just my take on it,
T2M

Donnachaidh wrote:I'm not following what you mean about working a minimum wage job.

I have worked several minimum wage jobs, from food service (cooking and register) to delivering packages to landscaping. Though the worst was either cleaning up homeless camps or clearing drainage ditches full of stagnant water and rotting vegetation/trash.

I have never worked for the actual minimum wage. Even when working a "Minimum Wage Job". With unemployment at 10+%. Though at that time I was too ignorant to even realize the implications of that statistic. Employers hired me at more than the law's requirements. That was in urban, suburban or rural environments.

If every employer was out to do the minimum required and was able to do that my experience would be impossible! They all would have paid exactly the minimum wage. Which none of them did.

Simple supply and demand fixes it rather readily.

Again America declared war on poverty in the 60's. Since then the income winners, no matter the party in charge or even if it was split, the top is winning quite handily.

So sure lets continue double down on failed policies. After all we didn't do it right all those other times.

T2M

I am old. Yikes! Also have worked many jobs starting out at the minimum wage, whatever it was at that time. Ancient history. Got my first SUMMER job at the tender age of fifteen, (15) working at a gas dock which is a gas station not for cars but for small and kinda large boats and yachts. Up to about 100 feet.

Lasted only a few weeks at minimum wage. Quickly proved my worth and got a big raise. About 50%. Why? Because I showed up for work every day on time not drunk or hung over and ready to work hard. Also got some tips from yacht owners. My job also included fueling and cleaning up various yachts during the week.

This included small craft handling. The marina and gas dock owner was so impressed he gave me another raise. Why? Because I was valuable to him and was making him lots of money. A great value multiplier. I worked hard. Got paid well. Great fringe benefits. This was in 1963. Ancient history.

Edited by HB. South Wind Marina. Long gone. Was located in the LA and Long beach CA USA harbor just East of the Commodore Hines vertical lift bridge and the old Henry Ford draw bridge. Both bridges still in use. The marina site was just East of the gone Henry Ford auto assembly plant. Now all container ship berths.

Donnachaidh wrote:I'm not following what you mean about working a minimum wage job.

I have worked several minimum wage jobs, from food service (cooking and register) to delivering packages to landscaping. Though the worst was either cleaning up homeless camps or clearing drainage ditches full of stagnant water and rotting vegetation/trash.

Just realized I never really addressed what I was getting at/wanted to know. My apologies.

How many of your coworkers who were earning minimum wage at those jobs were "married with children"?

How many were attending college/trade school or still in high school?

How many were on their own and maintaining their own residence?

Have fun,
T2M

Another interesting graphic from a city commissioned study. Click on the top right. I can't get a direct link. My apologies.

http://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2016/ ... age-study/

Link to the Seattle paper editorial:

http://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/edi ... lay-money/

"One message we’ve been hearing from businesses is, when they’re hiring now, they’re placing a big emphasis on workers with experience.” - Jacob Vigdor

The study is rather limited in what it checks. But ...

The full study:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/309651787/Mi ... age-Report

Our preliminary analysis of grocery, retail, gasoline, and rent prices has found little or no evidence of price increases in Seattle relative to the surrounding areas.

Seems to ignore the graphic in the end of the study. That I was unable to link.


I have a limited knowledge of the area and it is phenomenally more expensive than the rest of Washington. But my personal experience in the area is about three years old. Haven't visited downtown Seattle in 5 or 6.

Interestingly enough most of the businesses were already paying more than the minimum now going to pay the minimum. This is just the impact of a 15% or so increase with the rest of raise going into affect over the next 2 to 5 years.

Lots of information in the study and I look forward to how it plays out. And learning from it!

Have Fun,
T2M

thinkstoomuch wrote:Since we are arguing the relative merits of pay.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33613246

Interesting survey from the UK.

Notice the title.

"How do people justify earning more than others?"

Surprisingly it seems to be a fairly balanced piece. Which I did not expect.

Have fun,
T2M

This reminds me of an article I read a while back on the other end of the payscale: CEOs. Most CEOs justify their enormous pay by citing their responsibility and how critical their judgement is to the company's success. But the article pointed out that although they were correct that the vast majority of people could not do a CEO's job nearly as effectively, it was not true that the CEOs were as unique as they were claiming. And that although there are rare cases of transformative CEOs such as Steve Jobs who are truly worth the enormous salary, most CEOs could be easily replaced by any one of the top 10 people at their company.