Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

Forgive the double post. I'm trying to catch up with my homework.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't know if you meant this some time ago or recently. But when I lived in Scandinavia 10 years ago, you just used debit/credit cards everywhere.

Well, you can just forget about such luxuries if you travel to Romania, one of my favorite countries. You MUST carry lei in Romania. Lots of places won't even accept bank cards, and even if they do, it is at your own risk.

Explained.

I talk about Romania a lot. Many of my foreign friends live there. I was supposed to attend a wedding in Ro this summer, but, well. Pandemic.

I've mentioned on many occasions that I'm a Castle junkie. I have a goal to visit one hundred castles, or, at least, one hundred visits to castles. You cannot use a bank card in remote places like Transylvania. Even if you are in a major city in Ro, use ATM machines inside banks, your own bank if possible because the fees are exorbitant otherwise. And otherwise your card may be eaten by the machine -- even in the somewhat unlikely event the ATM hasn't been compromised -- which, on both accounts, happens a lot in certain foreign countries. Especially if you have a large balance on the card. A day's use of your card in some cities and you could have had a V8. A Ford V8! I often give Visa gift cards to friends in Ro, but they rather have cash. I don't blame them.

So, to answer the question, yes, I think there will always be a market for cash. Even in the HV. Like in the middle of Nowheresville where your plastic cannot be processed. And where the poor cannot afford the fees that you and I take for granted. I would imagine there are some places in the Verge where people have never had a bank card, let alone used one. Same here in the US. A lot of people don't even have bank accounts. Some bank accounts cost more than a week's pay for the poor. Yearly fees will feed a family for a year. On some cards, the yearly fee will buy a house.

I like Bluesqueak's notion of the difference between legal currency and legal tender.

cthia wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Reserve banks can - see the US Federal Reserve.

Agreed. The US "FED" Reserve Bank. Printing money has to be controlled because the amount of money in circulation affects the economy. Too much, or too little are both damaging to the economy. And if all banks are Federal Banks, there goes free market, and privacy.

And again, what becomes of the notion of a bank's "reserve" if currency can simply be printed at will?

Private banks and foundations in the US could print private bank notes from 1837-1866. they were considered legal tender, but the further you were from the issurer, the less likely they would be accepted, and if so it would usually be accepted for a lower value, due to costs to exchange, and the risks of accepting.

National Bank Act of 1863 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bank_Act_of_1863

cthia wrote:I would imagine that "private" banks in England had to cease printing money because of the same concerns I had upstream. It's the job of the Feds.

Banks cannot print money as you seem to suggest.

Jonathan_S wrote:Reserve banks can - see the US Federal Reserve.

Agreed. The US "FED" Reserve Bank. Printing money has to be controlled because the amount of money in circulation affects the economy. Too much, or too little are both damaging to the economy. And if all banks are Federal Banks, there goes free market, and privacy.

And again, what becomes of the notion of a bank's "reserve" if currency can simply be printed at will?

Do you agree that those sector banks in the the Solarian League (such as the Bank of Madrid) can act the same as our Federal Bank system, subject to the some strictures on reserve? Otherwise do you have any justification for arguing that the sector banks have not been given the authority to behave like our Federal Banking system? We have the example of banks in Scotland and Northern Ireland that can print notes in Pound denominations and what reserve requirements they are obligated to observe.

The meaning of a reserve was easy to understand when a currency was on the gold or silver standard. Now that our money is a fiat currency the reserve is whatever requirement is set by the enabling legislation.

The unarguable point is that the chips created by the Bank of Madrid act exactly the same as banknotes.

cthia wrote:but they rather have cash. I don't blame them.

Same here in the US. A lot of people don't even have bank accounts. Some bank accounts cost more than a week's pay for the poor. Yearly fees will feed a family for a year. On some cards, the yearly fee will buy a house.

Bank accounts... are FREE in the USA... I have NEVER paid for one. Had accounts in Mexico, S. Korea, both were FREE as well. Keep balance over certain amount and it is free. Last one I switched into was $1000. One before that was $500.

Now if you have a business account your BALANCE has to be above a certain higher level than individual, but it is not high. And a weeks pay would easily cover this.

What the HELL are you doing accruing fees? Something requiring lots of stupidity or debt would be my presumption.

Relax wrote:

cthia wrote:but they rather have cash. I don't blame them.

Same here in the US. A lot of people don't even have bank accounts. Some bank accounts cost more than a week's pay for the poor. Yearly fees will feed a family for a year. On some cards, the yearly fee will buy a house.

Bank accounts... are FREE in the USA... I have NEVER paid for one. Had accounts in Mexico, S. Korea, both were FREE as well. Keep balance over certain amount and it is free. Last one I switched into was $1000. One before that was $500.

Now if you have a business account your BALANCE has to be above a certain higher level than individual, but it is not high. And a weeks pay would easily cover this.

What the HELL are you doing accruing fees? Something requiring lots of stupidity or debt would be my presumption.

To be fair some banks are pretty hostile to low balance users and do charge fees for checking and/or savings accounts if they don't have a minimum amount of money, or direct deposit, or a minimum number of qualifying activities each month.

Now you can usually find a bank or credit union that won't pull that BS, but not all areas have much banking competition - and banks in areas with primarily low income communities tend to be more aggressive about having these types of fees. Per wiki the Federal Reserve estimates that approximately 22% of US households are unbanked (do not have access to a bank account).


OTOH for travel ATM fees; there are several banks that offer complete refunds of out of network ATM fees, and some of them even have no foreign transaction fees. So high foreign ATM fees don't have to be a problem for a traveler. (ATM's likely to have skimmers attached, or that simply aren't available, can be a problem). Had the fun once of arriving and expecting to get cash from the ATM only to discover they disabled ATMs at that international airport after 11pm.

Relax wrote:

cthia wrote:but they rather have cash. I don't blame them.

Same here in the US. A lot of people don't even have bank accounts. Some bank accounts cost more than a week's pay for the poor. Yearly fees will feed a family for a year. On some cards, the yearly fee will buy a house.

Bank accounts... are FREE in the USA... I have NEVER paid for one. Had accounts in Mexico, S. Korea, both were FREE as well. Keep balance over certain amount and it is free. Last one I switched into was $1000. One before that was $500.

Now if you have a business account your BALANCE has to be above a certain higher level than individual, but it is not high. And a weeks pay would easily cover this.

What the HELL are you doing accruing fees? Something requiring lots of stupidity or debt would be my presumption.

Bank accounts are NEVER free.* There are ALWAYS hidden costs. These hidden costs are like the false advertisements on the internet regarding downloading a file. It's free... to download. But to get any significant use from it, it is NOT free. Some banks FINALLY require no minimum daily balance and only require $25 to open the account. These banks are not located in low income neighborhoods.

Therefore, if -- and only if -- poor people can spare $25 to sit in an account when they are living paycheck to paycheck, they usually do not have access to a vehicle to do bank business. Nor do they have constant access to the internet, if at all. Or a computer for that matter. Or even know how to operate a computer, or understand the internet and how to affect such advanced transactions. Poor people usually operate in payroll checks that are cashed at their local grocer. Why do you think many people couldn't get direct deposit for their stimulus checks? That's why Democrats are balking at the Bank cards being issued to some people, which come with a fee for using the damn thing!

In my case, I've never had a card that didn't have a high minimum daily balance and a high annual fee. I have a business in two countries and friends all about the globe. I also have an offshore bank account. I need a card that offers lots of specialized services. I need a card that can transfer large amounts of money, and guarantee the arrival of that money in 24 hrs. You are not going to transfer amounts of 25k without incurring significant fees on a standard card. IF -- and only if -- that card will even allow it. Many banks, indeed most banks, do not offer services that I need. In fact, there is only one American bank that has a branch located in Romania that can handle my needs. It isn't cheap. But it would certainly be stupid of me NOT to have that preferred account. I'd lose much more than the yearly fees. This has been a small portion of a very long answer.

The short answer is... For the same reason I waste money on convenience stores. Convenience. My time is valuable. Especially while on vacation. That goes double while on vacation abroad.

*Now consider the fee for an overdraft. Can someone who lives paycheck to paycheck afford that fee? Every time they make a mistake? Can they afford paying someone to drive them to the bank? A plain account gets plain old service and protection. Poor people cannot afford minimum purchases. Poor people cannot afford the cost of using an ATM belonging to a bank other than their own, but their bank may not be located in their neighborhood.

Sometimes NO bank is in their neighborhood. In some cases there is NO bank even in their entire city! Poor people cannot afford losing their bank card. They tend to keep up with their cash. They can manage cash that they can see. Poor people cannot afford the fee for lost bank cards charged by some banks. Especially the cheap no frills cards. And they certainly cannot afford waiting 3-5 days for a new card, OR the prohibitive expense of overniting it! I can go on, and on. I volunteered in disenfranchised communities quite a bit. My family sends disenfranchised people to college. Their problems go right over your head, and the heads of the Republicans.

Poor people cannot afford not being able to get their last $19.99 out of the bank, because the ATM won't allow them to withdraw less than $20.00. And it'll cost more than they have to get a ride to their bank. They can't afford spending $2-$5 of that last money using an ATM that isn't their own. And only the most expensive ATMs are located in poor neighborhoods.

Certain friends here and abroad rather have cash than cards. But I can get money to them quickly, and much more securely and cheaply, with cards. The one time yearly fee for certain services is high, but the savings is immense. And, the convenience, practicality, and peace of mind, is priceless.

You get what you pay for, and you get what you don't.


Multiply that by a googol if applied to the Verge.

cthia wrote:Forgive the double post. I'm trying to catch up with my homework.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I don't know if you meant this some time ago or recently. But when I lived in Scandinavia 10 years ago, you just used debit/credit cards everywhere.

Well, you can just forget about such luxuries if you travel to Romania, one of my favorite countries. You MUST carry lei in Romania. Lots of places won't even accept bank cards, and even if they do, it is at your own risk.

Sure, there are jurisdictions where paper money is very much in use. At that time I lived in Scandinavia, I used to work for a telecom company whose strategy for expansion was "The Next Billion" (Internet users), which trying to get into online commerce people who do not have credit cards and sometimes no bank account. But they do have a smartphone. So I know somewhat of those situations, though it's been a decade since I've had to look at it.

Anyway, my point wasn't that everywhere there would be no cash equivalent in the HV. My point is that the most advanced jurisdisctions with low poverty rates -- and we can probably say the Manticore Binary System and Beowulf are at the top of that list -- could have been using an all-electronic system for a very long time. It's just very convenient that when I go jogging, I only have to carry my phone with me and it serves me if I want to buy a bottle of water (note: not that assured in the US!). I'm never out, plus I have a list of all my transactions so I don't have to wonder why I only have $20 when I know I always withdraw $60.

The question was: if the MBS is like that, does using untraceable cash automatically cause red flags from the Royal Financial Authority?

cthia wrote:Bank accounts are NEVER free.* There are ALWAYS hidden costs. But to get any significant use from it, it is NOT free. These banks are not located in low income neighborhoods.

Bald faced lie. I gather you must be a rich white elitist who has never once been in a poor area. Banks exist just fine in poor areas and their policies do not differ. If they did, they would be sued and rightly so. I use them all the time and so do all the "poor" people you denigrate. And yes, unlimited checking etc is free(other than you have to pay for checks). Today everyone gets a debit card for free as banks loving nailing people with overdraft charges, but if you cut it up and use their phone app instead which shows you your balance before paying...--> Still free by the way...

Many poor people are poor because they are living on outskirts of the law to avoid the tax man(lot of small businesses to make their paperwork easier), illegal aliens, dodging creditors, keep their welfare benefits coming while holding a job so do not go over limit and get cut off, or for some cracked up mental retardation do not trust the system and want the cash in their mattress use "credit unions"/ payday "loans" who will more than willingly steal a % of the checks/payments from these black market people. Yes, such PAYDAY loan businesses are located where these people live.
Q: What comes first? Chicken, or egg.
--> A: Chicken

PS: I have been several people described above, and no I never have used a PAYDAY loan/check cashing robbing of a % of said check, but know plenty of those who have and frankly do not completely disagree with them. The welfare state is completely screwed up. It incentivizes people to NOT work. Likewise if you do some small side job for someone how can you possibly justify getting a business license, tax ID, etc along with all the paperwork regarding L&I, workmans comp, insurance, etc when all you did was a single job worth ~$1500 and then have to send the damned government ~$800 or more of it and all the damned paperwork which will take longer to fill out and file than doing the actual job. And heaven forbid you cross city/county/state lines and have to do all the paperwork again.

tlb wrote:There is no need for a PIN with these things.

That would seem to contradict RFCs post you included upstream, lest I improperly digested it.

tlb wrote:That is exactly what was shown in Torch of Freedom; not an issued coin, but a credit chip that can hold an arbitrary amount. Chapter 4:

Fortunately, it wasn't always possible to rely on normal electronic transfers, even when both parties to the transfers in question were as pure as the new fallen snow. Which was why physical fund transfers were still possible. As the female crewmember stepped forward, Hutchins punched in the combination to unlock the battle steel box, and its lid slid smoothly upward. Inside were several dozen credit chips, issued by the Banco de Madrid of Old Earth. Each of those chips was a wafer of molecular circuitry embedded inside a matrix of virtually indestructible plastic. That wafer contained a bank validation code, a numerical value, and a security key (whose security was probably better protected than the Solarian League Navy's central computer command codes), and any attempt to change the value programmed into it when it was originally issued would trigger the security code and turn it into a useless, fused lump. Those chips were recognized as legal tender anywhere in the explored galaxy, but there was no way for anyone to track where they'd gone, or—best of all from the slavers' perspective—whose hands they'd passed through, since the day they'd been issued by the Banco de Madrid.

The crewwoman didn't actually reach for the credit chips, of course. That sort of thing simply wasn't done. Besides, she knew as well as Hutchins did that if she'd been foolish enough to insert her hand into that box, the automatically descending lid would have removed it quite messily. Instead, she produced a small hand unit, aimed it in the direction of the chips, and studied the readout. She gazed at it for a moment, making certain that the amount on the readout matched the one Hutchins' superiors had agreed to, then nodded.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I wonder if there's also a third kind: a digital, physical wallet device. Instead of taking fixed-denomination notes or coins, one would load up a certain amount into their wallet device. It's still a withdrawal from your account, so if you lose this device, you can't recover the money. But unlike the fixed denominations that the transaction above was said to have been conducted in, this wallet would transfer only the amount required at the moment of transaction. You'd connect it via some very-short-range or physical medium to another such device and the two devices would exchange some information digitally, performing the monetary transaction.

Brilliant, and I was thinking much of the same in a question upstream about how one pays for things. It has to be as practical as paying with paper currencies. One of my cards can be used to debit my account by physically touching the card to a properly equipped register at checkout. RFCs post above seems to corroborate it as well.

I wonder how secure these things really are even in the HV. High tech cards only beget high tech criminals. If you notice in the above post, a device is used to scan the amount on the chips. They aren't SUPPOSED to be hackable. Yet, our current bank cards aren't supposed to be either.

My brother sent me one of these darn things long before I knew I needed one. RFID scanners could be the prototype of the gizmo used above. LOL

I've seen "elaborate" homemade concoctions using aluminum foil inside a plastic construct made from a simple ziplock bag.

At any rate, I can imagine many people in the HV not wanting to trust these cards. Especially when criminals can readily tell what's in your wallet. There has to be an advanced form of warwalking in the HV.

One guess what medium of currency Lady Young used when she fled.

cthia wrote:Brilliant, and I was thinking much of the same in a question upstream about how one pays for things. It has to be as practical as paying with paper currencies. One of my cards can be used to debit my account by physically touching the card to a properly equipped register at checkout. RFCs post above seems to corroborate it as well.

I wonder how secure these things really are even in the HV. High tech cards only beget high tech criminals. If you notice in the above post, a device is used to scan the amount on the chips. They aren't SUPPOSED to be hackable. Yet, our current bank cards aren't supposed to be either.

My brother sent me one of these darn things long before I knew I needed one. RFID scanners could be the prototype of the gizmo used above. LOL

I've seen "elaborate" homemade concoctions using aluminum foil inside a plastic construct made from a simple ziplock bag.

At any rate, I can imagine many people in the HV not wanting to trust these cards. Especially when criminals can readily tell what's in your wallet. There has to be an advanced form of warwalking in the HV.

One guess what medium of currency Lady Young used when she fled.

You do know that you can shield a RFID card from readers simply by wrapping it in a thin sheet of metal, like aluminum foil? Hundreds, if not thousands of products exist to shield RFID cards from sensors. This really is a non issue for the prepared.