Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

tlb wrote:That is exactly what was shown in Torch of Freedom; not an issued coin, but a credit chip that can hold an arbitrary amount. Chapter 4:

Fortunately, it wasn't always possible to rely on normal electronic transfers, even when both parties to the transfers in question were as pure as the new fallen snow. Which was why physical fund transfers were still possible. As the female crewmember stepped forward, Hutchins punched in the combination to unlock the battle steel box, and its lid slid smoothly upward. Inside were several dozen credit chips, issued by the Banco de Madrid of Old Earth. Each of those chips was a wafer of molecular circuitry embedded inside a matrix of virtually indestructible plastic. That wafer contained a bank validation code, a numerical value, and a security key (whose security was probably better protected than the Solarian League Navy's central computer command codes), and any attempt to change the value programmed into it when it was originally issued would trigger the security code and turn it into a useless, fused lump. Those chips were recognized as legal tender anywhere in the explored galaxy, but there was no way for anyone to track where they'd gone, or—best of all from the slavers' perspective—whose hands they'd passed through, since the day they'd been issued by the Banco de Madrid.

The crewwoman didn't actually reach for the credit chips, of course. That sort of thing simply wasn't done. Besides, she knew as well as Hutchins did that if she'd been foolish enough to insert her hand into that box, the automatically descending lid would have removed it quite messily. Instead, she produced a small hand unit, aimed it in the direction of the chips, and studied the readout. She gazed at it for a moment, making certain that the amount on the readout matched the one Hutchins' superiors had agreed to, then nodded.

There is no need for a PIN with these things.

cthia wrote:That would seem to contradict RFCs post you included upstream, lest I improperly digested it.

I was thinking much of the same in a question upstream about how one pays for things. It has to be as practical as paying with paper currencies. One of my cards can be used to debit my account by physically touching the card to a properly equipped register at checkout. RFCs post above seems to corroborate it as well.

I wonder how secure these things really are even in the HV. High tech cards only beget high tech criminals. If you notice in the above post, a device is used to scan the amount on the chips. They aren't SUPPOSED to be hackable. Yet, our current bank cards aren't supposed to be either.

I do not think there is a contradiction in saying no PIN is needed. Note that no PIN was entered to read the amounts; but that is the only thing that you are allowed to do with these chips, since the amount is fixed when issued by the bank. So the "security key" is just there as part of the anti-tamper protocol.

Clearly security protocols are better in the Honorverse, because Haven was not able to exactly duplicate technology even when they have a captured example of it.

Even paper money has a "security key" in the form of serial number, but clearly no PIN is needed.

tlb wrote:That is exactly what was shown in Torch of Freedom; not an issued coin, but a credit chip that can hold an arbitrary amount. Chapter 4:

Fortunately, it wasn't always possible to rely on normal electronic transfers, even when both parties to the transfers in question were as pure as the new fallen snow. Which was why physical fund transfers were still possible. As the female crewmember stepped forward, Hutchins punched in the combination to unlock the battle steel box, and its lid slid smoothly upward. Inside were several dozen credit chips, issued by the Banco de Madrid of Old Earth. Each of those chips was a wafer of molecular circuitry embedded inside a matrix of virtually indestructible plastic. That wafer contained a bank validation code, a numerical value, and a security key (whose security was probably better protected than the Solarian League Navy's central computer command codes), and any attempt to change the value programmed into it when it was originally issued would trigger the security code and turn it into a useless, fused lump. Those chips were recognized as legal tender anywhere in the explored galaxy, but there was no way for anyone to track where they'd gone, or—best of all from the slavers' perspective—whose hands they'd passed through, since the day they'd been issued by the Banco de Madrid.

The crewwoman didn't actually reach for the credit chips, of course. That sort of thing simply wasn't done. Besides, she knew as well as Hutchins did that if she'd been foolish enough to insert her hand into that box, the automatically descending lid would have removed it quite messily. Instead, she produced a small hand unit, aimed it in the direction of the chips, and studied the readout. She gazed at it for a moment, making certain that the amount on the readout matched the one Hutchins' superiors had agreed to, then nodded.

There is no need for a PIN with these things.

cthia wrote:That would seem to contradict RFCs post you included upstream, lest I improperly digested it.

I was thinking much of the same in a question upstream about how one pays for things. It has to be as practical as paying with paper currencies. One of my cards can be used to debit my account by physically touching the card to a properly equipped register at checkout. RFCs post above seems to corroborate it as well.

I wonder how secure these things really are even in the HV. High tech cards only beget high tech criminals. If you notice in the above post, a device is used to scan the amount on the chips. They aren't SUPPOSED to be hackable. Yet, our current bank cards aren't supposed to be either.

tlb wrote:I do not think there is a contradiction in saying no PIN is needed. Note that no PIN was entered to read the amounts; but that is the only thing that you are allowed to do with these chips, since the amount is fixed when issued by the bank. So the "security key" is just there as part of the anti-tamper protocol.

Clearly security protocols are better in the Honorverse, because Haven was not able to exactly duplicate technology even when they have a captured example of it.

Even paper money has a "security key" in the form of serial number, but clearly no PIN is needed.

You're probably correct in that particular chip, or how can they be considered untraceable. But I'm currently concerned about the notion ThinksMarkedly, and myself, has about another form of chip, that you may be able to pay bills, and personal loans with. IOW, it functions like a futuristic debit card.

But using Haven as an example falls flat. Haven's knowledge of security is shot to shit. Their ships can be destroyed by their own insubordinate crew, and an enemy prisoner with a smart pad.

Theemile wrote:You do know that you can shield a RFID card from readers simply by wrapping it in a thin sheet of metal, like aluminum foil? Hundreds, if not thousands of products exist to shield RFID cards from sensors. This really is a non issue for the prepared.

You missed the small print in my post. Yes, people may prepare themselves if they are aware of the latest scams. I wasn't. Most other people won't be either...

cthia wrote: I've seen "elaborate" homemade concoctions using aluminum foil inside a plastic construct made from a simple ziplock bag.

tlb wrote:That is exactly what was shown in Torch of Freedom; not an issued coin, but a credit chip that can hold an arbitrary amount. Chapter 4:

Fortunately, it wasn't always possible to rely on normal electronic transfers, even when both parties to the transfers in question were as pure as the new fallen snow. Which was why physical fund transfers were still possible. As the female crewmember stepped forward, Hutchins punched in the combination to unlock the battle steel box, and its lid slid smoothly upward. Inside were several dozen credit chips, issued by the Banco de Madrid of Old Earth. Each of those chips was a wafer of molecular circuitry embedded inside a matrix of virtually indestructible plastic. That wafer contained a bank validation code, a numerical value, and a security key (whose security was probably better protected than the Solarian League Navy's central computer command codes), and any attempt to change the value programmed into it when it was originally issued would trigger the security code and turn it into a useless, fused lump. Those chips were recognized as legal tender anywhere in the explored galaxy, but there was no way for anyone to track where they'd gone, or—best of all from the slavers' perspective—whose hands they'd passed through, since the day they'd been issued by the Banco de Madrid.

The crewwoman didn't actually reach for the credit chips, of course. That sort of thing simply wasn't done. Besides, she knew as well as Hutchins did that if she'd been foolish enough to insert her hand into that box, the automatically descending lid would have removed it quite messily. Instead, she produced a small hand unit, aimed it in the direction of the chips, and studied the readout. She gazed at it for a moment, making certain that the amount on the readout matched the one Hutchins' superiors had agreed to, then nodded.

There is no need for a PIN with these things.

cthia wrote:That would seem to contradict RFCs post you included upstream, lest I improperly digested it.

I was thinking much of the same in a question upstream about how one pays for things. It has to be as practical as paying with paper currencies. One of my cards can be used to debit my account by physically touching the card to a properly equipped register at checkout. RFCs post above seems to corroborate it as well.

I wonder how secure these things really are even in the HV. High tech cards only beget high tech criminals. If you notice in the above post, a device is used to scan the amount on the chips. They aren't SUPPOSED to be hackable. Yet, our current bank cards aren't supposed to be either.

tlb wrote:I do not think there is a contradiction in saying no PIN is needed. Note that no PIN was entered to read the amounts; but that is the only thing that you are allowed to do with these chips, since the amount is fixed when issued by the bank. So the "security key" is just there as part of the anti-tamper protocol.

Clearly security protocols are better in the Honorverse, because Haven was not able to exactly duplicate technology even when they have a captured example of it.

Even paper money has a "security key" in the form of serial number, but clearly no PIN is needed.

cthia wrote:You're probably correct in that particular chip, or how can they be considered untraceable. But I'm currently concerned about the notion ThinksMarkedly, and myself, has about another form of chip, that you may be able to pay bills, and personal loans with. IOW, it functions like a futuristic debit card.

But using Haven as an example falls flat. Haven's knowledge of security is shot to shit. Their ships can be destroyed by their own insubordinate crew, and an enemy prisoner with a smart pad.

At the time you said a PIN was needed, you were talking about my statement concerning the chips created by Bank of Madrid. I take it that you now agree that they function as banknotes and no PIN is needed for them.

I said before that what Thinksmarkedly was suggesting is more like a gift card than a debit card, because the amount is retained within the chip and that amount can be altered by a transaction using a PIN. That is different from a debit card which can access money up to the amount set by what is in the account. Ultimately there has to be a connection to the original bank, because the money removed from the chip has to be realized in some form

PS. despite the security lapses for Haven, both they and the Solarian tech companies had strong incentives to duplicate the Manticoran technology and were not able to break the security. So we agree that security by Manticore was far superior to most other people; but we should expect that everyone's security features are light years ahead of where we are today.

tlb wrote:That is exactly what was shown in Torch of Freedom; not an issued coin, but a credit chip that can hold an arbitrary amount. Chapter 4:

Fortunately, it wasn't always possible to rely on normal electronic transfers, even when both parties to the transfers in question were as pure as the new fallen snow. Which was why physical fund transfers were still possible. As the female crewmember stepped forward, Hutchins punched in the combination to unlock the battle steel box, and its lid slid smoothly upward. Inside were several dozen credit chips, issued by the Banco de Madrid of Old Earth. Each of those chips was a wafer of molecular circuitry embedded inside a matrix of virtually indestructible plastic. That wafer contained a bank validation code, a numerical value, and a security key (whose security was probably better protected than the Solarian League Navy's central computer command codes), and any attempt to change the value programmed into it when it was originally issued would trigger the security code and turn it into a useless, fused lump. Those chips were recognized as legal tender anywhere in the explored galaxy, but there was no way for anyone to track where they'd gone, or—best of all from the slavers' perspective—whose hands they'd passed through, since the day they'd been issued by the Banco de Madrid.

The crewwoman didn't actually reach for the credit chips, of course. That sort of thing simply wasn't done. Besides, she knew as well as Hutchins did that if she'd been foolish enough to insert her hand into that box, the automatically descending lid would have removed it quite messily. Instead, she produced a small hand unit, aimed it in the direction of the chips, and studied the readout. She gazed at it for a moment, making certain that the amount on the readout matched the one Hutchins' superiors had agreed to, then nodded.

There is no need for a PIN with these things.

cthia wrote:That would seem to contradict RFCs post you included upstream, lest I improperly digested it.

I was thinking much of the same in a question upstream about how one pays for things. It has to be as practical as paying with paper currencies. One of my cards can be used to debit my account by physically touching the card to a properly equipped register at checkout. RFCs post above seems to corroborate it as well.

I wonder how secure these things really are even in the HV. High tech cards only beget high tech criminals. If you notice in the above post, a device is used to scan the amount on the chips. They aren't SUPPOSED to be hackable. Yet, our current bank cards aren't supposed to be either.

tlb wrote:I do not think there is a contradiction in saying no PIN is needed. Note that no PIN was entered to read the amounts; but that is the only thing that you are allowed to do with these chips, since the amount is fixed when issued by the bank. So the "security key" is just there as part of the anti-tamper protocol.

Clearly security protocols are better in the Honorverse, because Haven was not able to exactly duplicate technology even when they have a captured example of it.

Even paper money has a "security key" in the form of serial number, but clearly no PIN is needed.

cthia wrote:You're probably correct in that particular chip, or how can they be considered untraceable. But I'm currently concerned about the notion ThinksMarkedly, and myself, has about another form of chip, that you may be able to pay bills, and personal loans with. IOW, it functions like a futuristic debit card.

But using Haven as an example falls flat. Haven's knowledge of security is shot to shit. Their ships can be destroyed by their own insubordinate crew, and an enemy prisoner with a smart pad.

tlb wrote:At the time you said a PIN was needed, you were talking about my statement concerning the chips created by Bank of Madrid. I take it that you now agree that they function as banknotes and no PIN is needed for them.

I conceded the point to you that they probably don't need a PIN. It appeared that RFCs post contradicted it. But I think you did a good job explaining that.

I also agree we can call them banknotes, or the like. I do not agree they are general currency. They may be used by quite a few people, maybe even the majority in affluent systems, but I think chips are to currency as debit cards are to cash.

tlb wrote:I said before that what Thinksmarkedly was suggesting is more like a gift card than a debit card, because the amount is retained within the chip and that amount can be altered by a transaction using a PIN. That is different from a debit card which can access money up to the amount set by what is in the account. Ultimately there has to be a connection to the original bank, because the money removed from the chip has to be realized in some form

I think I'm the problem here. I use prepaid debit cards as gift cards, it makes it possible to refill and use the card. But they aren't necessarily the same as a gift card which isn't necessarily linked to an account.

tlb wrote:PS. despite the security lapses for Haven, both they and the Solarian tech companies had strong incentives to duplicate the Manticoran technology and were not able to break the security. So we agree that security by Manticore was far superior to most other people; but we should expect that everyone's security features are light years ahead of where we are today.

Agreed. However, we should also agree that criminals and their abilities are also light years ahead of where we -- and they -- are today. That's why Harkness was able to do what he did to Ransom's ship. And why Shannon was able to mistakenly blow up the StateSec ships.

cthia wrote:I also agree we can call them banknotes, or the like. I do not agree they are general currency. They may be used by quite a few people, maybe even the majority in affluent systems, but I think chips are to currency as debit cards are to cash.

I accept that archaic forms of currency may be the exception and not the rule in affluent systems. But it is hard to wrap my head around archaic forms of money totally disappearing. Especially in poor systems.

I certainly could be wrong there as well. The idea of a single currency in electronic form might help to seriously curtail a lot of criminal activity. In the manner that Food Stamp fraud was made more difficult with EBT cards. Not impossible, just more difficult. But even so, with EBT cards, the use of the card can be monitored. The use of these specialized chips could raise red flags. They could be the MO of criminals, just as beepers eventually became the call-sign of Prostitution and drug dealers.

Electronic chips/cards sitting center stage would also make counterfeiting more difficult, and lessen drug activity and drug cartels stockpiling entire warehouses full of cash, such as this $205M cash seizure. And third world countries doing the same. The street drug-dealer may find it difficult to explain lots of the same amount transactions on his chip/card.

But they may hinder the poor from making ends meet by bartering. Do note, however, that anything can be traded locally if it is of value.

cthia wrote:I also agree we can call them banknotes, or the like. I do not agree they are general currency. They may be used by quite a few people, maybe even the majority in affluent systems, but I think chips are to currency as debit cards are to cash.

cthia wrote:I accept that archaic forms of currency may be the exception and not the rule in affluent systems. But it is hard to wrap my head around archaic forms of money totally disappearing. Especially in poor systems.

I certainly could be wrong there as well. The idea of a single currency in electronic form might help to seriously curtail a lot of criminal activity. In the manner that Food Stamp fraud was made more difficult with EBT cards. Not impossible, just more difficult. But even so, with EBT cards, the use of the card can be monitored. The use of these specialized chips could raise red flags. They could be the MO of criminals, just as beepers eventually became the call-sign of Prostitution and drug dealers.

Electronic chips/cards sitting center stage would also make counterfeiting more difficult, and lessen drug activity and drug cartels stockpiling entire warehouses full of cash, such as this $205M cash seizure. And third world countries doing the same. The street drug-dealer may find it difficult to explain lots of the same amount transactions on his chip/card.

But they may hinder the poor from making ends meet by bartering. Do note, however, that anything can be traded locally if it is of value.

Out of curiosity I did a search of the Honorverse books that I have on my computer (nothing after Mission of Honor), looking for mentions of physical coins or money (aside from the Bank of Madrid chips). This is what I found.

For the word "coin", ignoring figures of speech such as "coin flip", "coin toss" or "when the coin drops" and also the fact that "coin" appears in "coincidence" etc.; I get the following:

"A Grand Tour" by David Drake in More than Honor:

"Half a Solarian credit to the child who leads Sir Hakon to Merchant Singh's!" Beresford called, holding high a plastic coin with a coppery diffraction grating at its core. "Hop it, now! Sir Hakon's too important a person to wait."

Honor Among Enemies, chapter 25:

The rippling sound of shuffled cards hovered in the berthing compartment as Randy Steilman's thick fingers manipulated the deck. He'd shed his work uniform for shorts and a T-shirt, and the dense hair on his heavily muscled arms looked like dark fur under the lights. He offered the deck to Ed Illyushin to cut, but the environmental tech—a first-class, which made him the most senior person in the compartment—only rapped it with a knuckle, declining the cut, and coins thumped as the players anted up for the next hand.
"Seven card stud," he announced, and the deck whispered as he dealt the hole cards, then the first face up. "King of diamonds is high," he observed. "What'cha gonna do there, Jackson?"
"Um." Jackson Coulter scratched his jaw, then tossed a five-dollar coin out onto the table.

"Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington" in Changer of Worlds:

Honor finished making up her bunk (with regulation "Saganami Island" corners on the sheets and a blanket taut enough to bounce a five-dollar coin), then detached the special piggyback unit from her locker and lifted the locker itself into the waiting bulkhead brackets.

Shadow of Saganami, chapter 31:

He sighed, finished his beer, tossed a couple of local coins onto the tabletop, and stood. He tucked the folded newspaper under his arm—not because he was particularly interested in keeping it, but because leaving it behind might prick someone's curiosity if they'd noticed how intently he'd been scanning it earlier. It probably didn't much matter either way, but that sort of professional consideration was programmed into him on an almost instinctual level.

This what I get for the physical expression of money:

Recruiting Exercise:

“That’ll be a cred and a half,” he told me, sliding it across the bar, and I bit my lip in dismay. That was a lot of money for a single not-that-big glass with some kind of paper or plastic umbrella sticking out of the top. It was for me, anyway.

“Sure,” I said and swiped my uni-link over his terminal. I didn’t tip him. I hoped that wouldn’t piss him off, because I couldn’t afford any trouble. But I couldn’t afford the tip, either.

Ashes of Victory, chapter 18:

"Three-quarters of a million?" Mueller scratched his chin thoughtfully, managing to keep the elation from his expression. "Ummm. I think we can handle that. We have a mass rally in Coleman Steading week after next. It's an outdoor picnic, with entertainment, and we're expecting several thousand people. Most of them wouldn't be able to contribute more than a few Austens under normal circumstances, but enough of them are members of our team that I think we could pass the money through them. It would have to be in cash, though. As long as it's in cash, they can always tell anyone who asks that they were keeping it at home under the mattress because they didn't trust banks, and no one can prove they weren't. Electronic trails are much harder to hide."

At All Costs, chapter 50:

"The money's in place?"
"Yes," Tallman said, managing not to sound wearily patient. He did know how to do his job, after all. "The credit transfers have been made, backdated, and then erased . . . mostly. I handled the computer side myself." He smiled and shook his head.
"The Havenites really ought to hire a good Solarian firm to update their systems security. It shouldn't have been this easy to hack."
"Count your blessings," his current employer said sourly. "Their accounting software may be vulnerable, but we've tried about four times to break into their other secured files without much luck. Actually, I suspect you got into their banking programs from the Solly end, didn't you?"
"Well, yes," Tallman admitted. "I invaded their interface with their banks."
"That's what I thought." His employer shook her head. "Don't take this personally, but a lot of Sollies make some rather unjustified assumptions about their technological superiority. One of these days, that may turn around and bite all of you on the ass. Hard."

So there are coins in circulation and Grayson's Austen is in some physical form; but aside from the Bank of Madrid chips, I found no evidence of large denomination bills for Haven, Manticore or the Solarian League.

cthia wrote:
I would imagine that "private" banks in England had to cease printing money because of the same concerns I had upstream. It's the job of the Feds.

Ah, no. It was because England (and Wales) was running out of gold to back all the banknotes.

The Scottish issuing banks are still required to back their notes with either physical pounds sterling or gold. No electronic accounting tricks; if a private bank issues notes they have to be able to hand over something of physical worth for each and every issued note.

cthia wrote:Banks cannot print money as you seem to suggest.

Jonathan_S wrote:Reserve banks can - see the US Federal Reserve.

Agreed. The US "FED" Reserve Bank. Printing money has to be controlled because the amount of money in circulation affects the economy. Too much, or too little are both damaging to the economy. And if all banks are Federal Banks, there goes free market, and privacy.

And again, what becomes of the notion of a bank's "reserve" if currency can simply be printed at will?

The danger of arguing from US practice is that RFC is a very competent historian who often uses non-US history. Yes, the US and England/Wales have a central bank system, but the English/Welsh system still co-exists with a private currency system in the other home nations and crown dependencies. Heinlein nicked Hong Kong’s private currencies and turned them into Hong Kong dollars in Luna (Moon is a Harsh Mistress). His Loonies trusted the private bank notes more than the Fed ones.

The problem with private currencies is that you can run out of commodities needed to back them - as the English did - and it’s more difficult to increase/decrease the amounts in circulation.

cthia wrote:I conceded the point to you that they probably don't need a PIN. It appeared that RFCs post contradicted it. But I think you did a good job explaining that.

I also agree we can call them banknotes, or the like. I do not agree they are general currency. They may be used by quite a few people, maybe even the majority in affluent systems, but I think chips are to currency as debit cards are to cash.

Sorry, it is just that you surprised me, so I was just making sure. I never expected a quick agreement.

tlb wrote:"A Grand Tour" by David Drake in More than Honor:

"Half a Solarian credit to the child who leads Sir Hakon to Merchant Singh's!" Beresford called, holding high a plastic coin with a coppery diffraction grating at its core. "Hop it, now! Sir Hakon's too important a person to wait."

That story doesn't really count. It's way out there in terms of canonicity. Aside from a few names, it's not related at all to the HV...

Honor Among Enemies, chapter 25:

The rippling sound of shuffled cards hovered in the berthing compartment as Randy Steilman's thick fingers manipulated the deck. He'd shed his work uniform for shorts and a T-shirt, and the dense hair on his heavily muscled arms looked like dark fur under the lights. He offered the deck to Ed Illyushin to cut, but the environmental tech—a first-class, which made him the most senior person in the compartment—only rapped it with a knuckle, declining the cut, and coins thumped as the players anted up for the next hand.
"Seven card stud," he announced, and the deck whispered as he dealt the hole cards, then the first face up. "King of diamonds is high," he observed. "What'cha gonna do there, Jackson?"
"Um." Jackson Coulter scratched his jaw, then tossed a five-dollar coin out onto the table.

In an informal game aboard ship, the "coin" could be just a token everyone agrees on, so the winner can collect later via electronic transfer. Of course, that opens up the possibility that the payer won't pay later (sore loser) and these people in particular would be likely to do exactly that. So it's more likely the "coin" was an actual monetary instrument of some sort.

"Ms. Midshipwoman Harrington" in Changer of Worlds:

Honor finished making up her bunk (with regulation "Saganami Island" corners on the sheets and a blanket taut enough to bounce a five-dollar coin), then detached the special piggyback unit from her locker and lifted the locker itself into the waiting bulkhead brackets.

Could be an expression.

Shadow of Saganami, chapter 31:

He sighed, finished his beer, tossed a couple of local coins onto the tabletop, and stood. He tucked the folded newspaper under his arm—not because he was particularly interested in keeping it, but because leaving it behind might prick someone's curiosity if they'd noticed how intently he'd been scanning it earlier. It probably didn't much matter either way, but that sort of professional consideration was programmed into him on an almost instinctual level.

Not Manticore. On a backward system in the Talbott Sector, physical currency is likely to still remain in practice.

Recruiting Exercise:

“That’ll be a cred and a half,” he told me, sliding it across the bar, and I bit my lip in dismay. That was a lot of money for a single not-that-big glass with some kind of paper or plastic umbrella sticking out of the top. It was for me, anyway.

“Sure,” I said and swiped my uni-link over his terminal. I didn’t tip him. I hoped that wouldn’t piss him off, because I couldn’t afford any trouble. But I couldn’t afford the tip, either.

Ninon paid with her uni-link, not with physical legal tender. And this is in Legislaturalist Haven, where the official value of money is probably very far from the actual value of money.

Ashes of Victory, chapter 18:

"Three-quarters of a million?" Mueller scratched his chin thoughtfully, managing to keep the elation from his expression. "Ummm. I think we can handle that. We have a mass rally in Coleman Steading week after next. It's an outdoor picnic, with entertainment, and we're expecting several thousand people. Most of them wouldn't be able to contribute more than a few Austens under normal circumstances, but enough of them are members of our team that I think we could pass the money through them. It would have to be in cash, though. As long as it's in cash, they can always tell anyone who asks that they were keeping it at home under the mattress because they didn't trust banks, and no one can prove they weren't. Electronic trails are much harder to hide."

Clearly cash. And this is exactly the type of money laundering that untraceable cash enables. I suppose that Grayson, at less than 10 years since joining the Manticoran Alliance, would still have a lot of history and habits with cash. You can't make it disappear in less than a generation, I suppose.

At All Costs, chapter 50:

"The money's in place?"
"Yes," Tallman said, managing not to sound wearily patient. He did know how to do his job, after all. "The credit transfers have been made, backdated, and then erased . . . mostly. I handled the computer side myself." He smiled and shook his head.
"The Havenites really ought to hire a good Solarian firm to update their systems security. It shouldn't have been this easy to hack."
"Count your blessings," his current employer said sourly. "Their accounting software may be vulnerable, but we've tried about four times to break into their other secured files without much luck. Actually, I suspect you got into their banking programs from the Solly end, didn't you?"
"Well, yes," Tallman admitted. "I invaded their interface with their banks."
"That's what I thought." His employer shook her head. "Don't take this personally, but a lot of Sollies make some rather unjustified assumptions about their technological superiority. One of these days, that may turn around and bite all of you on the ass. Hard."

Understatement of the century, if not the millennium!

cthia wrote:Brilliant, and I was thinking much of the same in a question upstream about how one pays for things. It has to be as practical as paying with paper currencies. One of my cards can be used to debit my account by physically touching the card to a properly equipped register at checkout. RFCs post above seems to corroborate it as well.

That's not what I was thinking of, but close enough. Gift cards, debit cards, etc. don't actually contain the money in themselves. The plastic thing you carry on your person is just an ID to the account number. The actual transaction is performed not by talking to your card, but by talking to a bank over the Internet or some dial-up. This has the added advantage that if you lose your card, you don't lose the money that was in it and you can simply ask for a replacement.

But that won't work over light-years. You need to have the ability to execute the transaction locally, without talking to the branch of the bank where the account is held. What I was describing is kind of a "bank in a pocket" solution, where the transaction is executed directly with your card. This would allow transactions in the middle of nowhere too.

Think of it as paper money that you can divide and subdivide. You go to your bank and withdraw $50 in one banknote. Then you want to buy a sandwich for $5, so you cut a piece of 10% of the area of the bill and give it to the attendant. A naive implementation of this would be that your electronic wallet is given 5000 Manticoran Dollar cents, each with their individual serial number, so you "give" those 500 serial numbers to the recipient (security left as an exercise to the reader).

You can also see this in pre-smartphone sci-fi, before authors got the concept of ubiquitous connectivity and adapted it. This showed up in one of the live action episodes of William Shatner's TekWar from the mid-1990s. At least the TV series got rid of faxes and robots printing stuff that the books had...