Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

Dauntless wrote:nowadays (1920PD) a non GA DB would fail to outrun a GA battlecruiser (Artermis class can do 675Gs) let alone a destroyer or LAC. Heck a SD(P) could almost mange it! (Invictus is 560Gs max accel).

Can you imagine the crew of a 30k tonne D.B. sweating while being run down by a 9 million tonne SD? That's a factor of 300x in mass.

Oh, wait, that's never going to happen. SDs don't travel alone. The D.B. would be run down by the entire battle squadron. You're going to say that the battle squadron could just detach one of their lesser escorts or even an LAC, but suppose the Admiral on the flagship says "we're already going that way anyway, so let's travel together."

lol. the crew of the unfortunate DB would loose their minds at being run down by a SD squadron and escorts.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:Also consider that even though the contestants were not yet at war in OBS, Honor took measures to disable the DB instead of seizing it. She simply split hairs. This is war, sue me later.

Honor was! That gave us a full book as a consequence, not to mention an SD ship class and a statue outside the Council of Steadholders.

Anyway, whether one can seize and search a D.B. depends on whether the "D" stands simply for "dispatch" or "diplomatic." A regular dispatch boat can be carrying a diplomatic pouch (which can be of any size), but the rest of the contents of the boat may not be diplomatic in nature and thus subject to legal search by the competent authorities. Or, conversely, the entire ship can have diplomatic immunity.

In the latter case, a diplomatic ship is sovereign territory of the nation it's flagged to. Searching it would be a violation of diplomatic norms, violation of territory, and, as others have said, could be an act of war.

Is banking data carried aboard diplomatic ships or inside diplomatic pouches? I suppose it happens from time to time, especially for black ops like the Peeps paying off people in Manticore or in the League. But I'm guessing the sheer volume of banking and financial data means the vast majority of which isn't afforded diplomatic immunity. It's hard to justify it even as an excuse.

Indeed! And good points. I suppose it would all be a matter of whether full diplomatic immunity is in play as well. And whether professional couriers are in play too, instead of ad-hoc couriers; in which case, diplomatic immunity would end as soon as the pouch is delivered. If the excuse is delivery to some branch or entity on Manticore or in Manticoran space. Diplomatic immunity ends as soon as the "exchange" is made in the case of an ad hoc carrier.

The comedian Harpo Marx was once used as an ad hoc diplomatic courier to deliver secret messages to Moscow, that were hidden under his sock.

Anyway, who knows. Anything can be included inside a diplomatic pouch. Even construction materials, or a chair. Anything that needs to be sent securely, so as to ensure its "non tampered with" status. To prevent incidents like the one where a bugging device was found in the Great Seal of the United States at the US Embassy in Moscow.

Professional couriers have to be vetted, trained, and vetted again and again. There are some 100 of them employed by the US. Diplomatic immunity isn't just handed out by the US like tickets to the theatre. And diplomatic packages aboard diplomatic couriers aren't cheap. The military would normally use diplomatic military couriers (planes and people) as I understand it. At any rate, these couriers are well trained professionals. In this spy, anti-spy, agent, anti-agent world of espionage, international intrigue, Russian agents and sexy foreign women encountered between places like Paris and Salzburg. LOL (See the 1952 movie, Diplomatic Courier). I just don't think well trained and vetted couriers are normally wasted on the common everyday, thrice-an-hour exchanges of currencies.

But yes, a diplomatic courier cannot be seized or detained, and diplomatic pouches can't even be scanned, or x-rayed. However, I would imagine such couriers are clearly marked in the HV. The DBs probably broadcast a unique set of transponder codes.

But, again, considering the US or any entity can seize assets of a foreign nation when at war, such as currencies, it is probably ill-advised to carry diplomatic pouches aboard run-of-the-mill Wells-Fargo ships. All very interesting indeed.

****** *

Something rather amusing comes to mind. People with diplomatic immunity can commit murder and get away with it. They operate with near impunity if you can stomach current news. In the case of a SL DB with diplomatic immunity, couldn't Honor seize it, or even destroy it? She should enjoy diplomatic immunity in her Grayson persona. So should Abigail. If Honor has diplomatic immunity, would it also extend to Nimitz? As it normally does with accompanying family members.

And, since Honor is a lost member of the Mesan line, do the MA have diplomatic immunity by proxy? LOL

OUCH! Stop that!

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Dauntless wrote:nowadays (1920PD) a non GA DB would fail to outrun a GA battlecruiser (Artermis class can do 675Gs) let alone a destroyer or LAC. Heck a SD(P) could almost mange it! (Invictus is 560Gs max accel).

Can you imagine the crew of a 30k tonne D.B. sweating while being run down by a 9 million tonne SD? That's a factor of 300x in mass.

Oh, wait, that's never going to happen. SDs don't travel alone. The D.B. would be run down by the entire battle squadron. You're going to say that the battle squadron could just detach one of their lesser escorts or even an LAC, but suppose the Admiral on the flagship says "we're already going that way anyway, so let's travel together."

This is just way too funny. What's even funnier is if the whole fleet don't just overtake it, but pass it, letting the last ship in the formation deal with it. LOL You do know you're going to see it in the Humor thread in some capacity, doncha?

The reason I brought it up is because one of the things found in the broad powers of the US at war is the possible seizure of all avenues of communications. TV stations and media. That would include DBs about to flee the system to take news of local military maneuvers.

****** *

On the flip side. Even the GA ain't gonna be catching Witch on her Stick.


Forgive me for choosing to spend another one of my highly-valued DOUBLE POST chips. It was burning a hole in my pocket.

Dauntless wrote:lol. the crew of the unfortunate DB would loose their minds at being run down by a SD squadron and escorts.

I mentioned a daydream of mine several years ago that I would have loved to see in print - a Destroyer captain is getting debriefed by a sector admiral after being the only surviving ship of a defensive fleet. His hands, holding a untouched glass of expensive t-whiskey are shaking; his unfocused eyes are boring holes into the far bulkhead. His shaky voice spins a tale of a Manty Sphinx class SD breaking off from the main fleet and runs down his picket destroyer division, destroying them one by one as it overhauled them. The Admiral already had a report from the dockyard that the nodes and comp of the destroyer were ruined - the chief engineer was a gibbering mess from flogging the destroyer systems past their breaking port; the doctors having already sedated him. The Destroyer captain, rocking manicly in the chair ends his report repeating endlessly " ...The Sphinx just kept coming...."

Banks us what secure methods of transport and transmission that they can access. Putting banking information or hard assets in a diplomatic pouch would be massive overkill and ultimatly not usefull unless you are trying to sneak said materials and information out of somewhere and have concern that local government is after it (but are unlikly to risk war or sacntions etc.

It all comes down to risk. If it is information then it can also be encrypted and made to look like something else.

I believe we are seeing normaly DB used as Dispatch Boat in the sence of a private or commercial fast transport such as a FedEX small (and very fast) excutive jet transport for small high value items and people. This is what things like news services use to get people and information around when it is time-critical. The small items can include disks/drives of sensitive and important material.
Mess with a private courier boat for a news service and you get bad publicity but governments don't have to allow private companies and people to enter or leave thier territory. They don't have the prohibitions and there are local laws etc and people/things can be detained or impounded etc.
The other use is the military/diplomatic sence and clearly would be identifed. Diplomatic implies the various legal status and protection though not all the personel involved might have that level of status for their persons. Touch this and things will happen. Unfortunate things. And there are a number of people who may be your friends but they won't be so friendly.
Military is, well, military and carries a certain level of official status and clear impression that it could be very very interesting if you mess with it. Lets just say that a big brother or sister might pay you a visit with a group of angry relatives---and break stuff(and kill people and perhaps keep breaking and killing for a bit).

DBs are fast transport. The rest is details.

Brigade XO wrote:Banks us what secure methods of transport and transmission that they can access. Putting banking information or hard assets in a diplomatic pouch would be massive overkill and ultimatly not usefull unless you are trying to sneak said materials and information out of somewhere and have concern that local government is after it (but are unlikly to risk war or sacntions etc.

It all comes down to risk. If it is information then it can also be encrypted and made to look like something else.

I believe we are seeing normaly DB used as Dispatch Boat in the sence of a private or commercial fast transport such as a FedEX small (and very fast) excutive jet transport for small high value items and people. This is what things like news services use to get people and information around when it is time-critical. The small items can include disks/drives of sensitive and important material.
Mess with a private courier boat for a news service and you get bad publicity but governments don't have to allow private companies and people to enter or leave thier territory. They don't have the prohibitions and there are local laws etc and people/things can be detained or impounded etc.
The other use is the military/diplomatic sence and clearly would be identifed. Diplomatic implies the various legal status and protection though not all the personel involved might have that level of status for their persons. Touch this and things will happen. Unfortunate things. And there are a number of people who may be your friends but they won't be so friendly.
Military is, well, military and carries a certain level of official status and clear impression that it could be very very interesting if you mess with it. Lets just say that a big brother or sister might pay you a visit with a group of angry relatives---and break stuff(and kill people and perhaps keep breaking and killing for a bit).

DBs are fast transport. The rest is details.

Honor's Star Falcon, the Paul Tankersly, is an example of a private DB/Executive transport/fast package transport. At ~48K tons iirc, it has the ability to haul a small amount of cargo and/or a few dozen passengers is mild luxury. Courier companies probably ply the core worlds and weathy worlds with such fast couriers offering speedy travel routes and the ability to rent a ship for custom destinations. We also know that news corps have fleets of such ships. The Havenite model is an example of a military model - little to no ability to carry passengers or cargo, just electronic mail as fast as possible.

cthia wrote:Professional couriers have to be vetted, trained, and vetted again and again. There are some 100 of them employed by the US. Diplomatic immunity isn't just handed out by the US like tickets to the theatre. And diplomatic packages aboard diplomatic couriers aren't cheap. The military would normally use diplomatic military couriers (planes and people) as I understand it. At any rate, these couriers are well trained professionals. In this spy, anti-spy, agent, anti-agent world of espionage, international intrigue, Russian agents and sexy foreign women encountered between places like Paris and Salzburg. LOL (See the 1952 movie, Diplomatic Courier). I just don't think well trained and vetted couriers are normally wasted on the common everyday, thrice-an-hour exchanges of currencies.

It occurred to me, while rereading my post, that we could have something like tax havens in the HV: flag havens. Small nations that are basically "rent-immunity" and for a small investment (or bribe) in their nation allow banks and other entities to transport whatever they wish in diplomatic pouches. But when reading your answer, I don't think that would work at all.

You're completely right: diplomatic couriers (the people) need to be well-trained and highly vetted. If you let the quality of that vetting drop, it becomes easy for an enemy, opponent or simply competitor to bribe the courier and get a peek at the pouch. Given the sheer volume of financial and banking data that must be going around the Galaxy at any point in time, it's statistically impossible to ensure the trustworthiness of every courier. And because of that sheer volume, the cost of a bribe is negligible: it's hard to find someone who will say "no" to a 1 billion Solarian credit payment per peek.

In turn, that means financial and banking data must rely on encryption for security. Or any other means through which the courier cannot break into the data (transport security).

But, again, considering the US or any entity can seize assets of a foreign nation when at war, such as currencies, it is probably ill-advised to carry diplomatic pouches aboard run-of-the-mill Wells-Fargo ships. All very interesting indeed.

You don't worry about giving casus belli when the "bellus" is already in progress.

Something rather amusing comes to mind. People with diplomatic immunity can commit murder and get away with it. They operate with near impunity if you can stomach current news. In the case of a SL DB with diplomatic immunity, couldn't Honor seize it, or even destroy it? She should enjoy diplomatic immunity in her Grayson persona. So should Abigail. If Honor has diplomatic immunity, would it also extend to Nimitz? As it normally does with accompanying family members.

And, since Honor is a lost member of the Mesan line, do the MA have diplomatic immunity by proxy? LOL

OUCH! Stop that!

Hmm... I think Honor's immunity depends on which persona she's using (the hat she's wearing). As an admiral in the RMN and possibly in the GSN, she's not acting as the Steadholder. Her actions must be military in nature and she's not allowed to violate the rules of war. More importantly, her immunity does not transfer to her subordinates, so following her illegal orders would land those subordinates in hot waters. The only people who are immune from prosecution when following the Steadholder's orders are their Steadholder Guards, when following direct orders. See the case of Honor wanting to send Andrew LaFollet to blow up the aforementioned 8-metre statue of her, only to be told that the statue was fully insured and the artist would be happy for a second commission.

As for one diplomatic-immune person being able to violate another's immunity... that gets too meta. Honor could indeed order her Guard to enter and search a diplomatic-immune ship and her guardsmen couldn't be prosecuted in a Grayson court. I don't know if she could. But the nation whose immunity was violated would definitely protest and could lead to war. There aren't many nations that would want to take on the GSN in 1923 (there are at most two!), but 1905 GSN? Or 1902 even?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Hmm... I think Honor's immunity depends on which persona she's using (the hat she's wearing). As an admiral in the RMN and possibly in the GSN, she's not acting as the Steadholder. Her actions must be military in nature and she's not allowed to violate the rules of war. More importantly, her immunity does not transfer to her subordinates, so following her illegal orders would land those subordinates in hot waters. The only people who are immune from prosecution when following the Steadholder's orders are their Steadholder Guards, when following direct orders. See the case of Honor wanting to send Andrew LaFollet to blow up the aforementioned 8-metre statue of her, only to be told that the statue was fully insured and the artist would be happy for a second commission.

As for one diplomatic-immune person being able to violate another's immunity... that gets too meta. Honor could indeed order her Guard to enter and search a diplomatic-immune ship and her guardsmen couldn't be prosecuted in a Grayson court. I don't know if she could. But the nation whose immunity was violated would definitely protest and could lead to war. There aren't many nations that would want to take on the GSN in 1923 (there are at most two!), but 1905 GSN? Or 1902 even?

Also Diplomatic Immunity simply means that the country hosting the diplomat promises to limit their actions they take against a diplomat, no mater what they've been accused of, to throwing them out of the country. But that doesn't actually mean the diplomat is necessarily going to get off without punishment. They have no immunity from prosecution or other punishment from their own country's government. And depending on what they did that country may well punish the diplomat; possibly even up to prosecuting them for the alleged offense they committed.

It all depends on what the diplomat did and how much their country needs to stay in the good graces of the offended country. And the offended country could start playing diplomatic or economic hardball if they don't feel the violation was dealt with adequately. But generally countries keep a tight reign on their diplomats because they only want them to give offense when ordered to; as part of a diplomatic strategy.

Normally the offenses diplomats get away with are petty things like diplomats at the UN ignoring NYC parking regulations and tickets; because they know the State Department (and therefor their home country) couldn't care less about that.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Hmm... I think Honor's immunity depends on which persona she's using (the hat she's wearing). As an admiral in the RMN and possibly in the GSN, she's not acting as the Steadholder. Her actions must be military in nature and she's not allowed to violate the rules of war. More importantly, her immunity does not transfer to her subordinates, so following her illegal orders would land those subordinates in hot waters. The only people who are immune from prosecution when following the Steadholder's orders are their Steadholder Guards, when following direct orders. See the case of Honor wanting to send Andrew LaFollet to blow up the aforementioned 8-metre statue of her, only to be told that the statue was fully insured and the artist would be happy for a second commission.

As for one diplomatic-immune person being able to violate another's immunity... that gets too meta. Honor could indeed order her Guard to enter and search a diplomatic-immune ship and her guardsmen couldn't be prosecuted in a Grayson court. I don't know if she could. But the nation whose immunity was violated would definitely protest and could lead to war. There aren't many nations that would want to take on the GSN in 1923 (there are at most two!), but 1905 GSN? Or 1902 even?

Granted. But my point is, if used in wartime - and not frivolously - against an enemy in which you are already at war (SL), it's pointless to talk about repercussions of war. When already at war. See your own notion about casus belli. Especially when at war against a despicable enemy like the SL. I'm certain Grayson would tell the SL to pound sand and refuse to waive Honor's immunity.

Oh! I forgot your argument that unless she was wearing her Steadholder's hat / uniform, she wouldn't have immunity anyway. Remember when she was on Cerberus and changed uniforms so she would be in compliance? "Mac, I'm going to need a change of clothes." LOL

You just gotta love Honor... and I do. LOL

Jonathan_S wrote:Also Diplomatic Immunity simply means that the country hosting the diplomat promises to limit their actions they take against a diplomat, no mater what they've been accused of, to throwing them out of the country. But that doesn't actually mean the diplomat is necessarily going to get off without punishment. They have no immunity from prosecution or other punishment from their own country's government. And depending on what they did that country may well punish the diplomat; possibly even up to prosecuting them for the alleged offense they committed.

It all depends on what the diplomat did and how much their country needs to stay in the good graces of the offended country. And the offended country could start playing diplomatic or economic hardball if they don't feel the violation was dealt with adequately. But generally countries keep a tight reign on their diplomats because they only want them to give offense when ordered to; as part of a diplomatic strategy.

Normally the offenses diplomats get away with are petty things like diplomats at the UN ignoring NYC parking regulations and tickets; because they know the State Department (and therefor their home country) couldn't care less about that.

Granted as well. However,

You must not be aware of current news which I alluded to upstream. Anne Sacoolas - who is simply the wife of an American diplomat operating in England - killed a 19-yr-old teenager while she was driving on the wrong side of the road. And this isn't her first serious driving offense. She used her immunity to flee the country. President Trump refused to waive her immunity. And she's simply... the wife of said diplomat.

If she had been acting in behalf of her country, in time of war, as Honor would be. Her immunity would not be waived. Or she'd be lauded as a hero for intentionally setting herself up to be disavowed and thrown under the bus for her country. I don't think Honor would ever see the undercarriage of a bus.

Besides, she's been given the boot before. She just relocated across the galaxy in the warm open arms of Grayson and Tester. Assuming Beth would dare let it happen again, over the respectable law abiding Solarian League.