Honorverse Top Ten Tacticians, Strategists

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I agree that her promotion wasn't wasted - is that considered a promotion, perhaps just a lateral move - but I still can't shake the memory as a reader of feeling like I was cheated by the author. On the one hand because she showed so much promise as a commander, I think the author had to give Shannon a lateral move, because she would have been more than a match for Honor. And not wanting to have to deal with the aftermath of two equally matched juggernauts on a collision course, the author had to nudge one of them into a different orbit.

I don't think Shannon is Honor's equal. Shannon may be very good, much above average, but Honor is a once-in-a-generation tactician. In direct confrontations between the two, Shannon would have usually stalemated, but the law of averages would say that Honor would eventually beat her if given enough battles. Which, as I said, would be a waste.

Shannon did beat her by coming up with Moriarty and the Triple Ripple and some other things, which gave the COs who got those techniques and toys an advantage. But on ship movement, on predicting reactions, and realising what the enemy will do, she's no match for Honor. In fact, that's probably her single biggest failing: as an introvert with poor social skills, she will lack the experience to read people that well. Oh, intelligent people can learn to do that, but as cthia is asking: where is she getting all that training?

I'd say, Shannon, while maybe not once in a generation, can still at least stand a better chance than random PRH officer or RN officer, and may be able to escape w/o losing everything in some cases.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I agree that her promotion wasn't wasted - is that considered a promotion, perhaps just a lateral move - but I still can't shake the memory as a reader of feeling like I was cheated by the author. On the one hand because she showed so much promise as a commander, I think the author had to give Shannon a lateral move, because she would have been more than a match for Honor. And not wanting to have to deal with the aftermath of two equally matched juggernauts on a collision course, the author had to nudge one of them into a different orbit.

If not a collision course, still very close to one.
I don't think Shannon is Honor's equal. Shannon may be very good, much above average, but Honor is a once-in-a-generation tactician. In direct confrontations between the two, Shannon would have usually stalemated, but the law of averages would say that Honor would eventually beat her if given enough battles. Which, as I said, would be a waste.
It would be a waste to lose Shannon.
Shannon did beat her by coming up with Moriarty and the Triple Ripple and some other things, which gave the COs who got those techniques and toys an advantage. But on ship movement, on predicting reactions, and realising what the enemy will do, she's no match for Honor. In fact, that's probably her single biggest failing: as an introvert with poor social skills, she will lack the experience to read people that well. Oh, intelligent people can learn to do that, but as cthia is asking: where is she getting all that training?

As a tech nerd myself, who's also got poor social skills, that tech dev job is great for Shannon (even if she needs some help with politicians)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I agree that her promotion wasn't wasted - is that considered a promotion, perhaps just a lateral move - but I still can't shake the memory as a reader of feeling like I was cheated by the author. On the one hand because she showed so much promise as a commander, I think the author had to give Shannon a lateral move, because she would have been more than a match for Honor. And not wanting to have to deal with the aftermath of two equally matched juggernauts on a collision course, the author had to nudge one of them into a different orbit.

I don't think Shannon is Honor's equal. Shannon may be very good, much above average, but Honor is a once-in-a-generation tactician. In direct confrontations between the two, Shannon would have usually stalemated, but the law of averages would say that Honor would eventually beat her if given enough battles. Which, as I said, would be a waste.

Shannon did beat her by coming up with Moriarty and the Triple Ripple and some other things, which gave the COs who got those techniques and toys an advantage. But on ship movement, on predicting reactions, and realising what the enemy will do, she's no match for Honor. In fact, that's probably her single biggest failing: as an introvert with poor social skills, she will lack the experience to read people that well. Oh, intelligent people can learn to do that, but as cthia is asking: where is she getting all that training?

I agree that the law of averages would catch up to Shannon, but I don't think her skill set would have been far away from Honor's. Theisman is a very close match for Honor himself. But what would be the deciding factor is the tech gap. I don't want to take anything from Honor, but the toys that Sonja gave her to play with was the deciding factor most of the time. Had the tech been equal, the RMN would have found itself in a heap of trouble. Even if ship production was relatively equal.

But as far as Shannon being inferior in ship movements, or reading her enemy's intent. I just can't agree with that. Tactical is the one position you need to excel at to make you a great commander. That is why they call it "tactical." And at tactical, Shannon is a witch. She is supernatural.

Remember that scene when Honor fooled the Peeps by arranging her ships into an odd wall of battle. It appeared to be ships below the wall forming a wall of battle? It was ships of the wall. Shannon spotted that!

What more proof do you want at tactical? Shannon spotted Honor's trick with inferior hardware. She read Honor!

Shannon_Foraker wrote:As a tech nerd myself, who's also got poor social skills, that tech dev job is great for Shannon (even if she needs some help with politicians)

And as another tech nerd with less than ideal social skills I think I'd make a pretty poor captain - even if I was a tactical genius (spoiler; I'm not ).
I'd most likely fail on the personnel management side of the job; and that leads to a ship that's not in good shape for combat.

Foraker seems better at that than I'd be; but I don't know if she'd be able to inspire her crew, and motivate them to reach quite the extreme heights of personal skill development and teamwork, as Honor does.

But when it come down to it, developing weapons is one skill set, developing tactics to best use them is another, and exercising command is a third (yet somewhat overlapping with the 2nd) -- and just because one is a genius at one doesn't imply they're a genius at the others. (For example, despite Honor serving stretch on the weapons development board there's no evidence that she'd be much of a weapons designer; yet Shannon seems to have excelled at that role).

Heck, you can have above average captains that aren't much at developing tactics; as long as they've got a good playbook to work from (and possible some inspiration from their tac department). If they can reliably recognize which (existing) tactic best fits the situation they can go far; assuming that they excel at the other parts of command, like keeping their ship ready, their crew well trained, practiced, in-sync, and motivated.

Jonathan_S wrote:And as another tech nerd with less than ideal social skills I think I'd make a pretty poor captain - even if I was a tactical genius (spoiler; I'm not ).

Well, looks like we have a biased sample here in the forum, because I'm another.

I'd most likely fail on the personnel management side of the job; and that leads to a ship that's not in good shape for combat.

Foraker seems better at that than I'd be; but I don't know if she'd be able to inspire her crew, and motivate them to reach quite the extreme heights of personal skill development and teamwork, as Honor does.

That's mostly the XO's job. Though it would have been her job as she would be promoted from TO to XO before CO.

But there's more to it than that.

Shannon was indeed a Tac Witch. She could see things no one else could, intuit patterns from where others only saw noise, and see through the opponent's deceptions. That's what she did at Fourth Yeltsin: she noticed that the oncoming Grayson forces were slowly forming a wall of battle... and not any wall of battle, one with separations suited for superdreadnoghts, not battlecruisers that Honor's forces were pretending to be. She was also paying attention to Honor's escape from PNS Tepes in orbit of Hades.

But she didn't make the decisions on those cases. It was Tourville who reached over and pressed the Delete button. She was just staring at it. So it's possible that she's extremely intelligent, but takes time to make the right decisions. Given enough of it and enough data, she'll invariably make the right decisions.

But can she make them in the spur of the moment? A captain or force commander must.

Counter-example: she did make a decision when she saved Nimitz from execution by Ransom's StateSec forces. But how long could she have been calculating contingencies?

Shannon seems to be good at
- reading the noise from data better than computers (she read Honor and got promoted after Flag in Exile)
- tech dev skills (Moriarty, Triple Ripple, MDMs SD(P)s)
- tactics (Adler)
I want to say, that before the law of averages caught up to Haven's witch, she'd be a threat that would likely be preferred to be engaged with a majorly superior force (Not one RMN DD to a Havenite CA). I think that if she had been sent on command track, she could be a threat to the RMN for a while.

If she had been mentored by McQueen (instead of Tourville), she'd likely have been more ruthless (McQueen did the Cluster Bombing of the Dolists), but she's still likely good enough to have a note in her ONI dossier saying that where Shannon is, new tech (remember the early missile pods at Adler), or abnormal tactics (spinning Vaboun to get an 18 missile broadside) is likely to follow.

As for would she be able to inspire people, she had to have done some of that at Bolthole, even in the unlikely scenario that she solely conceived all on the new RN tech, as she'd need a motivated production crew.

Shannon_Foraker wrote:Shannon seems to be good at
- reading the noise from data better than computers (she read Honor and got promoted after Flag in Exile)
- tech dev skills (Moriarty, Triple Ripple, MDMs SD(P)s)
- tactics (Adler)
I want to say, that before the law of averages caught up to Haven's witch, she'd be a threat that would likely be preferred to be engaged with a majorly superior force (Not one RMN DD to a Havenite CA). I think that if she had been sent on command track, she could be a threat to the RMN for a while.

If she had been mentored by McQueen (instead of Tourville), she'd likely have been more ruthless (McQueen did the Cluster Bombing of the Dolists), but she's still likely good enough to have a note in her ONI dossier saying that where Shannon is, new tech (remember the early missile pods at Adler), or abnormal tactics (spinning Vaboun to get an 18 missile broadside) is likely to follow.

As for would she be able to inspire people, she had to have done some of that at Bolthole, even in the unlikely scenario that she solely conceived all on the new RN tech, as she'd need a motivated production crew.

Shannon is misunderstood and given a bad rap. Didn't she and Sonja discuss each other's foibles? Anyone who can - not just get along with - but win Horrible Hemphill over so easily has no such problems.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:And as another tech nerd with less than ideal social skills I think I'd make a pretty poor captain - even if I was a tactical genius (spoiler; I'm not ).

Well, looks like we have a biased sample here in the forum, because I'm another.

Jonathan, I would never have pegged you as having no social skills. There is a serious difference between feeling uncomfortable in a social setting vs being incompetent. I would invite you at any gathering and have absolutely no doubts about it. I don't think Shannon is socially inept at all. I think she is simply out of everyone's league and there isn't much in common. She is obviously a work-a-holic as well. So, socializing when there is much to do just doesn't interest her.

Jonathan'S wrote:I'd most likely fail on the personnel management side of the job; and that leads to a ship that's not in good shape for combat.

Foraker seems better at that than I'd be; but I don't know if she'd be able to inspire her crew, and motivate them to reach quite the extreme heights of personal skill development and teamwork, as Honor does.

It is hard to say. Honor seems off the scale in that regard. But do consider that there are many ways to win over a crew. Her complete and utter confidence in herself and her skills should do the trick. Especially when she begins racking up victory after victory. Having a competent commander will win any crew member over. Simply knowing my chances of survival are high will work for me. How soon did Honor have help with "reading" people?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That's mostly the XO's job. Though it would have been her job as she would be promoted from TO to XO before CO.

That is what I was thinking about the XO. But there is overlap. And a good CO needs to be able to assess the performance of the XO and make changes. Like Honor did with McKeon.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But there's more to it than that.

Shannon was indeed a Tac Witch. She could see things no one else could, intuit patterns from where others only saw noise, and see through the opponent's deceptions. That's what she did at Fourth Yeltsin: she noticed that the oncoming Grayson forces were slowly forming a wall of battle... and not any wall of battle, one with separations suited for superdreadnoghts, not battlecruisers that Honor's forces were pretending to be. She was also paying attention to Honor's escape from PNS Tepes in orbit of Hades.

But she didn't make the decisions on those cases. It was Tourville who reached over and pressed the Delete button. She was just staring at it. So it's possible that she's extremely intelligent, but takes time to make the right decisions. Given enough of it and enough data, she'll invariably make the right decisions.

But can she make them in the spur of the moment? A captain or force commander must.

Counter-example: she did make a decision when she saved Nimitz from execution by Ransom's StateSec forces. But how long could she have been calculating contingencies?

Fourth Yeltsin! SDs impersonating BCs! Thanks!

Shannon can make the call when it comes down to it. Her hand was moving to delete the recording. She only stopped herself when her CO noticed her. She had to stop then because at that point she was involving someone else. Her CO, someone she respected. She wasn't undecided about making the decision. Or if she was, it was because she was warring inwardly with duty and morality.

But do remember, when the shit really hits the fan in her world, it is because she made some assholes go BOOM!

Shannon_Foraker wrote:Shannon seems to be good at
- reading the noise from data better than computers (she read Honor and got promoted after Flag in Exile)
- tech dev skills (Moriarty, Triple Ripple, MDMs SD(P)s)
- tactics (Adler)
I want to say, that before the law of averages caught up to Haven's witch, she'd be a threat that would likely be preferred to be engaged with a majorly superior force (Not one RMN DD to a Havenite CA). I think that if she had been sent on command track, she could be a threat to the RMN for a while.

If she had been mentored by McQueen (instead of Tourville), she'd likely have been more ruthless (McQueen did the Cluster Bombing of the Dolists), but she's still likely good enough to have a note in her ONI dossier saying that where Shannon is, new tech (remember the early missile pods at Adler), or abnormal tactics (spinning Vaboun to get an 18 missile broadside) is likely to follow.

As for would she be able to inspire people, she had to have done some of that at Bolthole, even in the unlikely scenario that she solely conceived all on the new RN tech, as she'd need a motivated production crew.

Shannon mentored by McQueen?

WOE WHATTA CONCEPT! Darn, it's too late.

But of course, if she had been, she probably would have been purged much too soon right along with McQueen, and before her OOPS moment.

cthia wrote:

Shannon_Foraker wrote:Shannon seems to be good at
- reading the noise from data better than computers (she read Honor and got promoted after Flag in Exile)
- tech dev skills (Moriarty, Triple Ripple, MDMs SD(P)s)
- tactics (Adler)
I want to say, that before the law of averages caught up to Haven's witch, she'd be a threat that would likely be preferred to be engaged with a majorly superior force (Not one RMN DD to a Havenite CA). I think that if she had been sent on command track, she could be a threat to the RMN for a while.

If she had been mentored by McQueen (instead of Tourville), she'd likely have been more ruthless (McQueen did the Cluster Bombing of the Dolists), but she's still likely good enough to have a note in her ONI dossier saying that where Shannon is, new tech (remember the early missile pods at Adler), or abnormal tactics (spinning Vaboun to get an 18 missile broadside) is likely to follow.

As for would she be able to inspire people, she had to have done some of that at Bolthole, even in the unlikely scenario that she solely conceived all on the new RN tech, as she'd need a motivated production crew.

Shannon mentored by McQueen?

WOE WHATTA CONCEPT! Darn, it's too late.

But of course, if she had been, she probably would have been purged much too soon right along with McQueen, and before her OOPS moment.

Unless she was doing something else (loaned as a gift to Tourville or someone else who'd care enough to protect her(maybe Theisman)), which would have given her the protection needed, with some hacking (like her "Oops.").

Had she been mentored by McQueen and Tourville (with or w/o Caslet), the RMN would be at risk of having problems if Shannon had anywhere near equal tech. They'd still be at risk with Shannon being mentored by the people she was in canon, even w/o ship time (she still has Bolthole), although less. It's be cool for maybe Shannon to be studying McQueen's tactics for a war game, but with her new tech?

Does anyone have any other ideas about how some mentoring from McQueen would help (assuming Shannon survives like canon, though McQueen can die if you want in this AU, as long as she dies when she does in canon or later)?

Any ideas about my Battle of Manticore question? If you want more info on why I'm asking, PM me.