How to mothball RMN ships

Manticore is in the process of bringing the Talbot Quadrant member systems into the military and they have been short on the below-the-wall classes so it is possible that they would want to be cautious in dropping too many of the smaller ships that could be now sent to Talbot and to Silesia.

We haven't heard much about Silesia recently but it does represent a manpower resource that they will want to tap. Why? Because that is one way of bringing the the populations of those systems into the mainstream of the SEM rather than let all sorts of forces stew in sour feelings with the dividing Silesia with the IAE. And, yes, there are going to be some security problems but with more treecats coming into the mix there is a better shot at eliminating people who would join the RMN for the wrong reasons.

The smaller ships-with the more current tech and weapons would be useful in bringing along the next classes of officers as well as running commerce protection. The operative point is useful work, not just make-work patrolling . The questions about what will be needed or prudent to be kept in service to also provide for the expected needs for availability to keep a watch on problems that we (the readers) expect to develop in the shakeout of SL 2.0 as far as people trying to take advantage of all the turmoil there.

Sure, they have older ships which are probably surplus to requirements. Those which are clearly too far behind the curve of present tech are also a major source of materials for manufacture of the new ship production. Ok, there are all those SLN SDs and other surrendered/captured ships which are being processed through the breakers for both usable stuff and raw materials for new warships and the rebuilding of the infrastructure. At this point I can see Manticore offering Grayson former SLN SDs as sources for their own rebuilding programs.


Mothballing does give you a source of spare parts of some of the equipment your commissioned fleet can use. The challenge is pulling the parts and systems and equipment and having someplace to store it (and have it accessible for use. While everybody would really want all new parts, Manticore and Grayson don't yet have the capacity to produce everything they need for spares so the more "lightly used" equipment will get passed forward.

We shall see.

cthia wrote:I recall instances where RMN ships needed replacement parts that were backlogged. I imagine generic equipment can be pulled from mothballed ships and installed in other ships in a pinch. Like reactors, etc.

Making it a reserve/salvage yard.

For fighters, that's called a Hangar Queen.

Yes, you can do that. But that leaves your ready reserve not-ready. You can do it in a pinch, but it can't become procedure.

cthia wrote:I recall instances where RMN ships needed replacement parts that were backlogged. I imagine generic equipment can be pulled from mothballed ships and installed in other ships in a pinch. Like reactors, etc.

Making it a reserve/salvage yard.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:For fighters, that's called a Hangar Queen.

Yes, you can do that. But that leaves your ready reserve not-ready. You can do it in a pinch, but it can't become procedure.

Even though the ship building industry at Manticore and Grayson was destroyed not long ago; that is no longer a problem because of the alliance with Haven and Beowulf. Bolthole can turn out the basic ships and Beowulf can outfit them with the latest in electronics and missile systems.

In fact, once the industries at Manticore and Grayson are rebuilt, the Grand Alliance will have an over capacity.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I recall instances where RMN ships needed replacement parts that were backlogged. I imagine generic equipment can be pulled from mothballed ships and installed in other ships in a pinch. Like reactors, etc.

Making it a reserve/salvage yard.

For fighters, that's called a Hangar Queen.

Yes, you can do that. But that leaves your ready reserve not-ready. You can do it in a pinch, but it can't become procedure.

Though the US Navy mothball fleet had large portions of itself transition from ready reserve to parts reclamation donors in the decades following WWII. When originally mothballed the idea was that should war come again they could reactive the ships and expand the navy via reservices, new draftees, etc. to man them. But even fairly early on I believe they were sometimes raided for parts to keep their in-service counterparts going. But as time went on and their capabilities fell further and further behind active ship classes thoughts of potential reactivation, even in a war emergency, faded and they became almost purely sources to be raided for equipment - until eventually each one was picked over to the point where the decision was made to sell it for scrap.

A similar (though possibly more formalized) process still, as I understand it, is followed today in the Davis-Monthan aircraft boneyard. Some few aircraft are held short term in flyable condition, others are tagged for reactivation where no parts can be scavenged from them and they're periodically represerved, while still others are categorized as parts donor until everything of use is picked off them (or pulled and warehoused) and the airframe is scrapped. The difference between a boneyard part's plane and a hanger queen just seems to be a mater of location and scale. Hanger queens still belong to an active squadron and are at an airfield or carrier the squadron's assigned to -- boneyard parts planes are in a central storage location and not on the books of active squadrons


I guess in some cases its more efficient to leave the militarily useful hardware in place on some preserved vehicle, until that part is actually needed, than it is to preemptively pull and warehouse all that equipment (even if the warehouse route would probably make access and inventory tracking better; and save you the money of storing and preservice the vehicle itself)

Brigade XO wrote:Manticore is in the process of bringing the Talbot Quadrant member systems into the military and they have been short on the below-the-wall classes so it is possible that they would want to be cautious in dropping too many of the smaller ships that could be now sent to Talbot and to Silesia.

We haven't heard much about Silesia recently but it does represent a manpower resource that they will want to tap. Why? Because that is one way of bringing the the populations of those systems into the mainstream of the SEM rather than let all sorts of forces stew in sour feelings with the dividing Silesia with the IAE. And, yes, there are going to be some security problems but with more treecats coming into the mix there is a better shot at eliminating people who would join the RMN for the wrong reasons.

The smaller ships-with the more current tech and weapons would be useful in bringing along the next classes of officers as well as running commerce protection. The operative point is useful work, not just make-work patrolling . The questions about what will be needed or prudent to be kept in service to also provide for the expected needs for availability to keep a watch on problems that we (the readers) expect to develop in the shakeout of SL 2.0 as far as people trying to take advantage of all the turmoil there.

Sure, they have older ships which are probably surplus to requirements. Those which are clearly too far behind the curve of present tech are also a major source of materials for manufacture of the new ship production. Ok, there are all those SLN SDs and other surrendered/captured ships which are being processed through the breakers for both usable stuff and raw materials for new warships and the rebuilding of the infrastructure. At this point I can see Manticore offering Grayson former SLN SDs as sources for their own rebuilding programs.


Mothballing does give you a source of spare parts of some of the equipment your commissioned fleet can use. The challenge is pulling the parts and systems and equipment and having someplace to store it (and have it accessible for use. While everybody would really want all new parts, Manticore and Grayson don't yet have the capacity to produce everything they need for spares so the more "lightly used" equipment will get passed forward.

We shall see.

You have hit on one of the other major reason why I think mothballing is questionable. Manticore has never been able to fully cover its obligations to member states. I'd be bitchin like a crow if ships were being mothballed and my system was still being protected by some measly-ass picket that is just going to run for the hyper limit. Or should have run for the limit. And the GA is taking on new obligations.

"So what if there are no more gorillas in the wild. That only says that the MBS is safe. But it doesn't take a gorilla to kick the shit out of us and ruin our day."

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Yes, you can do that. But that leaves your ready reserve not-ready. You can do it in a pinch, but it can't become procedure.

A ship in the hand is worth more than a mothball in the bush?

most systems don't need a heavy picket.

unless the system has something truly special going for it, like spindle being sector capital or having a shipyard then generally speaking a squadron of CAs is way more then should be there.

I vaguely recall mention of using mainly LACs with a couple of bigger ships, CLs probably, for those systems where the picket is just there for customs or antipiracy work.

mid level systems like say Montana or Rembrant will probably get a couple of CAs or maybe BC, though nailing a BC down for this sort of thing is questionable.

spindle gets a SD(P) squadron or 2, Lynx as well if they want the wormhole to have mobile defences along with the forts, though as the planet lynx is not that close to the terminus they might be happy to rely just on the forts.

you can't be strong everywhere and the arguments for keeping the big hitters concentrated are pretty strong even with how dangerous even a pair of SD(P) are.

we discussed before that even manticore's non pod SDs are just junk nowadays and for less costs and greater eficnecy you could have Sag-Cs or Nikes doing the job so there is zero point in using them as anything other then raw materials for the smelters (barring useful things like weapons mounts etc).

Dauntless wrote:we discussed before that even manticore's non pod SDs are just junk nowadays and for less costs and greater eficnecy you could have Sag-Cs or Nikes doing the job so there is zero point in using them as anything other then raw materials for the smelters (barring useful things like weapons mounts etc).

And while we could agree on that, cthia's point wasn't necessarily about military logic. Politicians don't always act logically and might be calling for and passing laws requiring unwise use of resources. The point is that military spending is a risk-mitigation decision: there's no point in assigning a squadron of SDs to Split if the chance that someone is going to send 10 squadrons wallers with CLACs and supporting escorts is virtually indistinguishable from zero. And yet, that is not zero and the people (and especially the Senator!) from Split have a right to ask.

Fortunately, SEM defence is an imperial decision so it has to be the Imperial Parliament on Landing to make those decisions. And those worthies are far more likely to get RMN specialists show up with the actual bill for services rendered and thus squash such unwise decisions.

And going back on topic: a mothball fleet has a cost, different from a boneyard fleet. Those have to come from the yearly Defence Spending bills.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Dauntless wrote:we discussed before that even manticore's non pod SDs are just junk nowadays and for less costs and greater eficnecy you could have Sag-Cs or Nikes doing the job so there is zero point in using them as anything other then raw materials for the smelters (barring useful things like weapons mounts etc).

And while we could agree on that, cthia's point wasn't necessarily about military logic. Politicians don't always act logically and might be calling for and passing laws requiring unwise use of resources. The point is that military spending is a risk-mitigation decision: there's no point in assigning a squadron of SDs to Split if the chance that someone is going to send 10 squadrons wallers with CLACs and supporting escorts is virtually indistinguishable from zero. And yet, that is not zero and the people (and especially the Senator!) from Split have a right to ask.

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Actually, placing a underpowered picket at a key location is a valid military strategy. It was seen all the time in the 1st war were a 3rd tier system was picketed by as pair of Wallers or a squadron of BCs. Yes, the day to day work was done by a handful of DD-CAs, but why assign the big ships?

A Pair of wallers is just a light deterrent, right? a squadron can push them out of the system. Yes, but you need a squadron to do so, one or two - or even 3 might be lost if the cards don't go your way. send 4, you might still lose, or severely damage 2 or 3 ships, putting them out of the fight. No, a deterrent force of 2 ships forces you to go into the system in Squadron+ force to ensure light losses. And those ships have to be pulled from somewhere else weakening them there.

Theemile wrote:Actually, placing a underpowered picket at a key location is a valid military strategy. It was seen all the time in the 1st war were a 3rd tier system was picketed by as pair of Wallers or a squadron of BCs. Yes, the day to day work was done by a handful of DD-CAs, but why assign the big ships?

A Pair of wallers is just a light deterrent, right? a squadron can push them out of the system. Yes, but you need a squadron to do so, one or two - or even 3 might be lost if the cards don't go your way. send 4, you might still lose, or severely damage 2 or 3 ships, putting them out of the fight. No, a deterrent force of 2 ships forces you to go into the system in Squadron+ force to ensure light losses. And those ships have to be pulled from somewhere else weakening them there.

That was a deployment policy forced on the Admiralty by domestic RMN politics. It was definitely not because it was a good military strategy.

Yes, a pair of wallers means the attacker needs to bring along wallers of their own if they want to punch out the system defenses. (Though with only two, and given their low acceleration in the early war, a raiding force of CAs or BCs still has a decent chance of avoiding the pair of SDs and tearing up in-system traffic or even some infrastructure and then escaping).

But its easier for the Peeps to peel off enough wallers to utterly overwhelm a detached pair than it is do do the same against an entire 8-ship squadron (this being before the RMN's SD squadron size was reduced from 8 to 6 ships). So if the Peeps were aware of all these isolated pairs of SDs they could take 2-3 squadrons and sequentially hit several systems with these pairs before the RMN could disseminate the news and react. Even with towed pods RMN wallers weren't going to do well against an 4 (or 6) to 1 odds. So potentially the Peeps could knock out a couple squadrons worth of RMN SDs using just a couple squadrons of their own -- because the firepower (and defensive fire) overmatch in each fight allows the Peeps to defeat those RMN units in detail; when that sized Peep force would have lost a straight up fight against all those RMN units had they been concentrated.