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OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?

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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by kzt   » Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:08 am

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tlb wrote:And yet Honor can take her ships through the wormhole with one third of their pods tractored outside? We have seen LAC's tractored outside in HotQ and Frigates tractored outside through a jump in TEiF.

That's part of the technical edge of the RMN. They hold the pods inside the hyper envelope because they are tractored to the hull.

The Peep BC in HoQ had a weird engineering arrangement because there was an assumption that they would soon have tech from Manticore. Which, it turned out, was a mistake.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by kzt   » Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:16 am

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tlb wrote:And yet Honor can take her ships through the wormhole with one third of their pods tractored outside? We have seen LAC's tractored outside in HotQ and Frigates tractored outside through a jump in TEiF.

You see, Honor probably won't wait for 30 minutes or an hour while the enemy sets the terms of the engagement like Kuzak and D'Orville did as they marched to the slaughter.

"Sir, their acceleration's dropping," Captain Gwynett said.
D'Orville stepped across to her console, accompanied by Captain Ayrault, and she looked up at him.
"How much is it coming down?" he asked.
"Only about a half a KPS squared, so far, Sir."
"What the hell are they up to now?" Ayrault wondered aloud.
"Putting pods on tow, maybe," D'Orville replied.
"I suppose that could be it, Sir," Gwynett raid. "Their pods are almost as stealthy as ours are, and the recon platforms wouldn't be able to see them at this range. But those are superdreadnoughts. They'd have to have an awful lot of tractors to be able to tow so many pods they'd have to tow them outside their wedges."
D'Orville nodded. Pods towed inside a ship's wedge didn't degrade its acceleration. That, after all, was exactly what his own pre-pod designs were doing with the tractor-equipped pods glued to their hulls. But superdreadnought wedges were huge; for the Peeps to be towing so many pods they couldn't fit them all inside their wedges, they'd have to have hundreds of tractors per ship. So they had to be up to something else.

Baa Baa
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:31 am

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tlb wrote:I am not sure exactly what would have happened if Honor's ships had been on the Manticore side. I see ThinksMarkedly speculates that perhaps that was how Honor was intended to die; by becoming the fleet that gets trapped between Tourville and Chin. If she had been the one forced to react immediately, would she have had time to think that this might be Sidemore written large? Even if she had; wouldn't her actions still have been forced, because Tourville had to be chased? She was better suited to survive the situation that eliminated Kuzak's fleet, because of her weapon's range; but against the volume of fire that the "donkey" allowed, her ships could still be hurt badly when Chin fired.

As it actually happened, Honor had the benefit of Kuzak springing the trap; that way Honor knew where everyone was, there was nothing more to add.

My initial choice to put Kuzak at the Manticore end of the wormhole and leave Honor at Trevor's Star, was because I expected Honor to continue to attack the enemy. That places me with the members of the Admiralty that would face recriminations after the Battle of Manticore.


The defense against Sidemore is to come out of hyper some distance away from the optimum point. It gives Tourville a greater chance of escaping but prevents being ambushed.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:34 am

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tlb wrote:
kzt wrote:You can't travel through hyper with a fleet of missiles deployed. Otherwise Chin wouldn't have started rolling pods as soon as she exited hyper, she would have been firing. And didn't.

And yet Honor can take her ships through the wormhole with one third of their pods tractored outside? We have seen LAC's tractored outside in HotQ and Frigates tractored outside through a jump in TEiF.


You can hyper with them on the hull. You can't have them free flying in a grav wave or wormhole, though.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by tlb   » Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:45 am

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kzt wrote:You can't travel through hyper with a fleet of missiles deployed. Otherwise Chin wouldn't have started rolling pods as soon as she exited hyper, she would have been firing. And didn't.

tlb wrote:And yet Honor can take her ships through the wormhole with one third of their pods tractored outside? We have seen LAC's tractored outside in HotQ and Frigates tractored outside through a jump in TEiF.

kzt wrote:That's part of the technical edge of the RMN. They hold the pods inside the hyper envelope because they are tractored to the hull.

The Peep BC in HoQ had a weird engineering arrangement because there was an assumption that they would soon have tech from Manticore. Which, it turned out, was a mistake.

Loren Pechtel wrote:You can hyper with them on the hull. You can't have them free flying in a grav wave or wormhole, though.

The engineering difference AFTER HotQ had to do with the strength of the wedge nodes, because they were hoping to get the improved compensator based on the Grayson design; this would not have anything to do with the strength of the hyperspace generator.

Why do you assume that because the the donkey's tractors are holding the pods, that they are not basically on the skin of the ship? There is no reason that the donkeys cannot hold them close , through the jump and then within the wedge; until it is time to deploy them. From chapter 17 of The Honor of the Queen:
Valentine had pointed out that both Thunder and Principality had far more powerful hyper generators than any Masadan starship. In fact, their generators were powerful enough to extend their translation fields over six kilometers beyond their own hulls if he redlined them. That meant that if they translated from rest, they could take anything within six kilometers with them when they did. And that meant that if Masadan LACs clustered closely enough around them, they could boost the lighter vessels into hyper space.
Normally, that would have been little more than an interesting parlor trick, but Valentine had taken the entire idea one stage further. No LAC crew could survive the sort of acceleration ships routinely pulled in hyper for the simple reason that their inertial compensator would pack up the instant they tried it. But if they took the entire crew off and removed or secured all loose gear, Valentine suggested, there was no reason the ships themselves couldn’t take the acceleration on the end of a tractor beam.
Yu had thought he was out of his mind, but the engineer had pulled up the numbers on his terminal and demonstrated the theoretical possibility. Simonds had jumped at it, and to Yu’s considerable surprise, it had worked.

But there is more than you all need to think about. In another thread, people are saying Theisman is a great strategist; well that cannot be true if the result of Honor jumping with Kuzak, before Chin appears, is the complete defeat of both Tourville and Chin. Instead Theisman, Tourville and Chin all expected Haven's fleets to be hurt and expected Honor's and Kuzak's fleets to be destroyed. Tourville specifically held off the call for Chin to jump, hoping that Honor would join in. So what are you all not considering that they did? Or was Theisman "smoking crack" and his name should be struck from the list of top strategists?
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Apr 16, 2022 11:08 am

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tlb wrote:But there is more than you all need to think about. In another thread, people are saying Theisman is a great strategist; well that cannot be true if the result of Honor jumping with Kuzak, before Chin appears, is the complete defeat of both Tourville and Chin. Instead Theisman, Tourville and Chin all expected Haven's fleets to be hurt and expected Honor's and Kuzak's fleets to be destroyed. Tourville specifically held off the call for Chin to jump, hoping that Honor would join in. So what are you all not considering that they did? Or was Theisman "smoking crack" and his name should be struck from the list of top strategists?


I believe they counted on Eighth not having been reinforced from the levels from the Battle of Lovat. At that time, Honor had a single Battle Squadron with Keyhole II support and was using two squadrons' worth of pods to kill 2 SDs at a time. If Chin could somehow nail those Keyhole ships or at least their Keyholes, the battle would revert to pre-Apollo days -- or so everyone thought.

Those are not good odds still. Even assuming Tourville would have 150 effectives left at this point, the RHN 2nd+5th would have 2.5:1 advantage over the Alliance 3rd+8th. Given the tech edge and the fact that Honor and Kuzak would be defending the home system with other surprises (such as the LAC attack), I can't call these good odds. On the other hand, Honor and Kuzak have to protect the planets and thus do not have complete freedom of movement. It is a throw of the dice.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Sat Apr 16, 2022 11:14 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
tlb wrote:But there is more than you all need to think about. In another thread, people are saying Theisman is a great strategist; well that cannot be true if the result of Honor jumping with Kuzak, before Chin appears, is the complete defeat of both Tourville and Chin. Instead Theisman, Tourville and Chin all expected Haven's fleets to be hurt and expected Honor's and Kuzak's fleets to be destroyed. Tourville specifically held off the call for Chin to jump, hoping that Honor would join in. So what are you all not considering that they did? Or was Theisman "smoking crack" and his name should be struck from the list of top strategists?


I believe they counted on Eighth not having been reinforced from the levels from the Battle of Lovat. At that time, Honor had a single Battle Squadron with Keyhole II support and was using two squadrons' worth of pods to kill 2 SDs at a time. If Chin could somehow nail those Keyhole ships or at least their Keyholes, the battle would revert to pre-Apollo days -- or so everyone thought.

Those are not good odds still. Even assuming Tourville would have 150 effectives left at this point, the RHN 2nd+5th would have 2.5:1 advantage over the Alliance 3rd+8th. Given the tech edge and the fact that Honor and Kuzak would be defending the home system with other surprises (such as the LAC attack), I can't call these good odds. On the other hand, Honor and Kuzak have to protect the planets and thus do not have complete freedom of movement. It is a throw of the dice.

I always thought another fly in Beatrice's ointment was Honor's astrogator's skills. Would Theisman have planned for the risky jumping Honor asked her astrogator to do? Did the difficult maneuver he performed make a difference to Beatrice?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by tlb   » Sat Apr 16, 2022 11:33 am

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cthia wrote:I always thought another fly in Beatrice's ointment was Honor's astrogator's skills. Would Theisman have planned for the risky jumping Honor asked her astrogator to do? Did the difficult maneuver he performed make a difference to Beatrice?

I do not agree, even Kuzak's astrogator was pressed to perform risky jumps. The difference is that Kuzak's jumps put her exactly where the operation had hoped she would be; while Honor had the advantage of Chin's fleet already appearing. The entire operation depended on either Honor being with Kuzak or Honor being off someplace where she could not respond at all. The "fly" was that Honor was at Trevor's Star, but not close enough to join Kuzak. From chapter 66 of At All Costs:
But that didn't make it untrue, and he watched the master plot intently, waiting for Kuzak's ships to reappear upon it.
He didn't have to wait long. Less than fifteen minutes after they'd vanished from the Junction, eight and a half minutes after they recepted Diamoto's warning, they reappeared dangerously close to the RZ's boundary. It was an impressive display of pinpoint astrogation—one that showed a steel-nerved willingness to cut their margin razor thin. And one which also put the Manties well out on Second Fleet's flank and headed for Sphinx on a least-time course.
"Exactly where I would have placed them myself," he said quietly to DeLaney, who nodded vigorously.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Apr 16, 2022 11:38 am

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cthia wrote:I always thought another fly in Beatrice's ointment was Honor's astrogator's skills. Would Theisman have planned for the risky jumping Honor asked her astrogator to do? Did the difficult maneuver he performed make a difference to Beatrice?


That seems far-fetched. Even as far back as OBS, she's not the one doing the calculations. She had people to do it for her. In OBS and HotQ, she didn't have a flag staff, so her miscalculations of force positioning would be far more deadly.

After she was promoted to Commodore in the RMN (which is after she was promoted to full Admiral in the GSN), she'd always had a flag staff. Her orders would never have been to "drop us precisely here at this speed," but instead she'd explain her objective and have the staff do the calculation. This is not a bad movie where the admiral conjures up a plan and doesn't tell anyone about it (*cough* Vice-Admiral Holdo in Star Wars: The Last Jedi *cough*). There aren't OpSec issues with the staff in the flag bridge.

So Theisman couldn't and wouldn't count on her making a mistake.

Taking opportunity of one, sure. "Don't interrupt the enemy while she's in the process of making a mistake" and all. But you never plan on having luck.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by tlb   » Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:33 pm

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cthia wrote:I always thought another fly in Beatrice's ointment was Honor's astrogator's skills. Would Theisman have planned for the risky jumping Honor asked her astrogator to do? Did the difficult maneuver he performed make a difference to Beatrice?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:That seems far-fetched. Even as far back as OBS, she's not the one doing the calculations. She had people to do it for her. In OBS and HotQ, she didn't have a flag staff, so her miscalculations of force positioning would be far more deadly.

Cthia is NOT praising Honor's astrogation skills; he is praising the skills of her astrogator, note the pronoun in "Did the difficult maneuver he performed make a difference" and the phrase "risky jumping Honor asked her astrogator to do".
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