Fall 1924: What will the Admiralty build next

cthia wrote:Those things can carry as many as eight LACs? Can you imagine the number of counter-missile pods they could eject instead. Just one of those ships could eject enough CM pods to totally blunt an alpha launch. That would free the LACs for other more devilish duties.

Erm, I see the LAC as a plot crutch just like someone trying to write about the PT boats of WWI/WWII as somehow game changing. It was done to get Human action in the books instead of the logical step which was CM pods, or just more Pods to begin with.

With the advent of keyhole, the LAC's main justification, missile defense, is completely gone.

phillies wrote:I have an idea, but I am looking for some data first. The issue is the speed one can attain in each hyper band and -- but perhaps I am thinking of the wrong book -- the mass limit associated with the acceleration compensator.

RFC has said there are Bands withing the "alpha, beta, etc" bands so... how one calculates that RFC has never said. He has stated how much velocity is lost when translating and the multiplier in each band so... if one assumes constant acceleration within a band and no loss in the sub bands you could use the table in ...erm... uh... more than honor? I believe it is also at thefifthimperium.com

That was one of things I was kinda hoping was going to be in House of Steel. It was not.

Relax wrote:

cthia wrote:Those things can carry as many as eight LACs? Can you imagine the number of counter-missile pods they could eject instead. Just one of those ships could eject enough CM pods to totally blunt an alpha launch. That would free the LACs for other more devilish duties.

Erm, I see the LAC as a plot crutch just like someone trying to write about the PT boats of WWI/WWII as somehow game changing. It was done to get Human action in the books instead of the logical step which was CM pods, or just more Pods to begin with.

With the advent of keyhole, the LAC's main justification, missile defense, is completely gone.

That's probably overstating things. The Keyholes don't mount CMs of their own, and seem to be positioned within a thousand km of the ship; while LACs do carry (some) CMs and often form anti-missile screens up to a million or so km further down the threat axis; allowing them to attrite incoming missiles before they hit the CM envelope of the fleet; and also forcing those missiles to activate their ECM and jammers that much earlier.

A keyhole drastically multiplies the number of CM salvos a ship can launch, but that doesn't entirely obviate the advantage of pushing the missile defense envelope further out.


(Now, if the fight at Galton pushes them to deploy some dual-drive CMs and they get FTL fire control relays for them then that would seem to render the anti-missile LAC obsolete. [At least for defending ships large enough to carry those greatly oversized CMs and their remote relay platforms/drones])

Manticore would be better off if it were much larger. Of course, it did add a cluster recently, and it did fight a large war. "A five year voyage..." on a heavy cruiser? The crew would find this challenging.

So:A) Exploration ships. Sort of heavy cruiser size. Heavily stealthed, good compensators. Lots of detectors, replace most of the onboard missiles with exploration torpedoes, which might be much like current drones. Drop in on a system far out, listen hard for local population with tech, go in much closer, recovering a list of planets. Torpedoes fired do detailed mapping of each planet and then return to orbit around an identified planet. Torpedoes are very long range, and while orbiting deploy solar sails for power. So soon as the torpedoes are dropped, the exploration ship heads to the next star on its list Torpedoes will be recovered in, say, a year.

B) We are a thousand light years or more from home. Do we want to spend months and months going back and forth? No. We have the other ship, the BaseStar or something like that. The base star is, at a guess a hundred million tons, meaning it accelerates on grav plates, 0.5 km/second/second, meaning in about 4 days it is close to c. The base star accelerates once, and heads to a plausible system a thousand or two thousand LY out. It has supplies, yards, crew R&R facilities, etc., so the exploration ships use it as their fixed base. Ships get repairs and major overhauls. Crews can be rotated home en masse, so that 5 or 10 exploration ships are supported by the basestar. The objective is to get a hi-resolution map and identify the really good planets for exploration and settlements.

Jonathan_S wrote:That's probably overstating things.

Actually, it isn't.

LAC to be forward deployed to have a follow on CM launch go after missiles THEY missed, must be ~4-->5Mkm from ship, putting the LAC outside of defense of task group if missiles from different angle. That would never happen

@0.8c incoming a CM salvo interval is 10s, and to get to a useful CM interception distance requires another 10s, so ~20s flight time @0.8c...

Old WoH CM is 12ton. With an additional 15s run time ~15t = current CM? Close enough.
CM run time to get to forward thrust LAC station @ 5Mkm is another 15s or ~18ton/missile

LAC tonnage cost = 30,000ton(LAC+CLAC) for ~150Cm = 20t/CM

+ Human cost, + LAC, + CLAC, + ships dedicated to defending CLAC + dedicated building slip not building SDP

PS: LAC PDLC at that range does ~nothing as offensive guys are not stupid and will go around LAC's at that distance + spin wedge side toward LACs. And to get LAC's into position requires ~45minutes.

PPS: And an SDP easily limpetes a hundred long range LRCMn pods each holding 75 CM's in a flat pack pod modified for LRCM on its hull for quick release? Why bother with LAC's again? It is not like one does not know you are sticking your nose in a hornets nest and you need big bad fly swatters.

phillies wrote:Manticore would be better off if it were much larger. Of course, it did add a cluster recently, and it did fight a large war. "A five year voyage..." on a heavy cruiser? The crew would find this challenging.

So:A) Exploration ships. Sort of heavy cruiser size. Heavily stealthed, good compensators. Lots of detectors, replace most of the onboard missiles with exploration torpedoes, which might be much like current drones. Drop in on a system far out, listen hard for local population with tech, go in much closer, recovering a list of planets. Torpedoes fired do detailed mapping of each planet and then return to orbit around an identified planet. Torpedoes are very long range, and while orbiting deploy solar sails for power. So soon as the torpedoes are dropped, the exploration ship heads to the next star on its list Torpedoes will be recovered in, say, a year.

Why would one need more than a couple weeks? Their acceleration is measured in THOUSANDS of G's. Now if you wanted planetary survey data for length of a year/seasons Ok. Though why this has to fired from a CA is beyond me. Survey drone will not be much larger than an existing RD @200t. All we are looking for is slightly longer endurance.

Relax wrote:

phillies wrote:Manticore would be better off if it were much larger. Of course, it did add a cluster recently, and it did fight a large war. "A five year voyage..." on a heavy cruiser? The crew would find this challenging.

So:A) Exploration ships. Sort of heavy cruiser size. Heavily stealthed, good compensators. Lots of detectors, replace most of the onboard missiles with exploration torpedoes, which might be much like current drones. Drop in on a system far out, listen hard for local population with tech, go in much closer, recovering a list of planets. Torpedoes fired do detailed mapping of each planet and then return to orbit around an identified planet. Torpedoes are very long range, and while orbiting deploy solar sails for power. So soon as the torpedoes are dropped, the exploration ship heads to the next star on its list Torpedoes will be recovered in, say, a year.

Why would one need more than a couple weeks? Their acceleration is measured in THOUSANDS of G's. Now if you wanted planetary survey data for length of a year/seasons Ok. Though why this has to fired from a CA is beyond me. Survey drone will not be much larger than an existing RD @200t. All we are looking for is slightly longer endurance.

I am proposing a detailed orbital survey of planetary surfaces. That's much more demanding than looking for enemy ships. Also, there will typically be a considerable number of planets and asteroid belts.

Why something the size of a CA? The CA-size vessel over some months is to visit a considerable number of solar systems and drops reconnaissance torpedoes in each before advancing to the next system and finally returning to the basestar. You need to carry a good number of torpedoes.

phillies wrote:I am proposing a detailed orbital survey of planetary surfaces. That's much more demanding than looking for enemy ships. Also, there will typically be a considerable number of planets and asteroid belts.

Why something the size of a CA? The CA-size vessel over some months is to visit a considerable number of solar systems and drops reconnaissance torpedoes in each before advancing to the next system and finally returning to the basestar. You need to carry a good number of torpedoes.

Suggest Kammerling class.

phillies wrote:Manticore would be better off if it were much larger. Of course, it did add a cluster recently, and it did fight a large war. "A five year voyage..." on a heavy cruiser? The crew would find this challenging.

So:A) Exploration ships. Sort of heavy cruiser size. Heavily stealthed, good compensators. Lots of detectors, replace most of the onboard missiles with exploration torpedoes, which might be much like current drones. Drop in on a system far out, listen hard for local population with tech, go in much closer, recovering a list of planets. Torpedoes fired do detailed mapping of each planet and then return to orbit around an identified planet. Torpedoes are very long range, and while orbiting deploy solar sails for power. So soon as the torpedoes are dropped, the exploration ship heads to the next star on its list Torpedoes will be recovered in, say, a year.

B) We are a thousand light years or more from home. Do we want to spend months and months going back and forth? No. We have the other ship, the BaseStar or something like that. The base star is, at a guess a hundred million tons, meaning it accelerates on grav plates, 0.5 km/second/second, meaning in about 4 days it is close to c. The base star accelerates once, and heads to a plausible system a thousand or two thousand LY out. It has supplies, yards, crew R&R facilities, etc., so the exploration ships use it as their fixed base. Ships get repairs and major overhauls. Crews can be rotated home en masse, so that 5 or 10 exploration ships are supported by the basestar. The objective is to get a hi-resolution map and identify the really good planets for exploration and settlements.

Sounds like a (small) planetoid.

Relax wrote:

phillies wrote:I am proposing a detailed orbital survey of planetary surfaces. That's much more demanding than looking for enemy ships. Also, there will typically be a considerable number of planets and asteroid belts.

Why something the size of a CA? The CA-size vessel over some months is to visit a considerable number of solar systems and drops reconnaissance torpedoes in each before advancing to the next system and finally returning to the basestar. You need to carry a good number of torpedoes.

Suggest Kammerling class.

IIRC. aren't the Kammerlings based on a CL hull? Even with the Marine Country converted into workshops, rec areas, additional stowage for crew consumables, etc., they would be too small for the mission.