Attacking Darius:

penny wrote:I don't know why this is so difficult.

Let's say an LD wins the lottery and finds itself launching from 10 LS away. Theoretically it could be launching from less than half that range. You'd want the missile to launch in that mode even when it lights off.

You want the missile to begin its flight sprinting like Usain Bolt, and not to launch with a leisurely jog then select the kick in mid flight. From 10LS, while in flight, it can be shot down before the mode is selected.

At best you only have 3M km to get that accel up so it won't easily be shot down by point defense. So far so good.

This LD isn't moving at missile speeds past its target ships, otherwise its bow wave could be detected. Let's give it a quarter light-speed relative, 0.25c.

From 3 million km away and with that initial base velocity, a 15-second million-gravity acceleration will bring the missiles up to 0.75c, which is good because that high speed makes interception difficult. But the missile will only have crossed 5.5 light-seconds, so it would coast for 4.5.

The missile has to last a bit longer to cross the full distance, or be launched closer. It needs to last 21.5 seconds at a million gravities for a 3-million-km run.

Nothing we've seen so far indicates this acceleration is possible for any period of time, let alone 15-20 seconds.

In 20 seconds, the quarter-light-moving LD will close to half the dsitance to the targets. This is not enough for energy weapons... but is for CMs and shipkillers. Even if the defenders can't clear quickly enough to fire shipkillers, they may be able to fire CMs. Any CM that didn't target the incoming million-gravity missile can go after the launching ship, which was locked on.

In the 40 seconds it has, the LD can only deflect a measly 2000 km. That means it will be flying into debris, or will be within gun range of any ship that survived and turned wedge.

That actually means the LD would never be flying at quarter-light straight towards the targets. It would need to fly at a tangential course, which means the initial velocity vector for the missiles isn't pointed towards the targets and instead they'd need a parabolic course that I'm not in the mood to calculate right now...

Necessity is the mother of invention, and no other navy expected to be launching from such close ranges. Heck, energy range? You can see a wedge coming. You can't see a spider crawling until it is too late. So a spider has a reason to develop such a missile. Wedge based ships never had a reason to consider premature ejaculating missiles. And the certainly never had a chance to employ them.

You mean "luxury," not necessity. The LDs don't need to be at those insane close ranges. Though I will point out that 3 million km was regular range maybe half a century ago.

"Necessity" would be if they had these ships that could not win from anywhere and they had to come up with at least one winning strategy. I don't think this is likely, because a) there's a huge chance of not winning anyway (see above) and b) the ships wouldn't be designed in the first place without a possible winning strategy in the first place.

As for wedges not having a chance... the LACs during their first battle were stealth enough. It was because the PN didn't know what they were seeing, but it did allow them to close to energy range. And yet the RMN didn't invent the million-gravity missile.

penny wrote:I don't know why this is so difficult.

Let's say an LD wins the lottery and finds itself launching from 10 LS away. Theoretically it could be launching from less than half that range. You'd want the missile to launch in that mode even when it lights off.

You want the missile to begin its flight sprinting like Usain Bolt, and not to launch with a leisurely jog then select the kick in mid flight. From 10LS, while in flight, it can be shot down before the mode is selected.

At best you only have 3M km to get that accel up so it won't easily be shot down by point defense. So far so good.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:This LD isn't moving at missile speeds past its target ships, otherwise its bow wave could be detected. Let's give it a quarter light-speed relative, 0.25c.

From 3 million km away and with that initial base velocity, a 15-second million-gravity acceleration will bring the missiles up to 0.75c, which is good because that high speed makes interception difficult. But the missile will only have crossed 5.5 light-seconds, so it would coast for 4.5.

The missile has to last a bit longer to cross the full distance, or be launched closer. It needs to last 21.5 seconds at a million gravities for a 3-million-km run.

Nothing we've seen so far indicates this acceleration is possible for any period of time, let alone 15-20 seconds.

In 20 seconds, the quarter-light-moving LD will close to half the dsitance to the targets. This is not enough for energy weapons... but is for CMs and shipkillers. Even if the defenders can't clear quickly enough to fire shipkillers, they may be able to fire CMs. Any CM that didn't target the incoming million-gravity missile can go after the launching ship, which was locked on.

In the 40 seconds it has, the LD can only deflect a measly 2000 km. That means it will be flying into debris, or will be within gun range of any ship that survived and turned wedge.

That actually means the LD would never be flying at quarter-light straight towards the targets. It would need to fly at a tangential course, which means the initial velocity vector for the missiles isn't pointed towards the targets and instead they'd need a parabolic course that I'm not in the mood to calculate right now...

The speed of the LD doesn't come into play, except in its escape attempt.

Anyway, I allowed for your numbers in my post. The LD might even find itself launching from 15 LS away. Still close for HV battle. According to your numbers which I trust explicitly, these missiles cannot be deployed from 10 LS away. Rather than whatever their sweet spot happens to be. This is why I agree that a missile that can choose the mode on the fly would be more practical, as you and tlb suggest. But the perils of engineering and plot device might limit its utility.


So, the missile would be deployed at whatever range works. The sweet spot. Wait for it ...*

penny wrote:Necessity is the mother of invention, and no other navy expected to be launching from such close ranges. Heck, energy range? You can see a wedge coming. You can't see a spider crawling until it is too late. So a spider has a reason to develop such a missile. Wedge based ships never had a reason to consider premature ejaculating missiles. And the certainly never had a chance to employ them.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:You mean "luxury," not necessity. The LDs don't need to be at those insane close ranges. Though I will point out that 3 million km was regular range maybe half a century ago.

"Necessity" would be if they had these ships that could not win from anywhere and they had to come up with at least one winning strategy. I don't think this is likely, because a) there's a huge chance of not winning anyway (see above) and b) the ships wouldn't be designed in the first place without a possible winning strategy in the first place.

As for wedges not having a chance... the LACs during their first battle were stealth enough. It was because the PN didn't know what they were seeing, but it did allow them to close to energy range. And yet the RMN didn't invent the million-gravity missile.

I don't need to be close to a rabid dog, but that doesn't mean life won't place me there. Just like submarines of yore, the enemy obliviously turned right towards them.

An LD might find itself in energy range!

Besides, I could never get you to see that LDs will have varying missions. The situations that a pre-deployed LD might find itself in when defending Darius is going to be completely different than an LD that is attacking, or one loitering in enemy territory. Especially if the MA has a way to force a traditional missile battle; like kzt's tactic I sank my teeth into of jumping close to a GA fleet hanging out at the edge of the system waiting to translate back out. At Galton, they had planned for a traditional missile battle. But although Honor doesn't know who her daddy is, she damn well knows she wasn't born yesterday.

But pre-deployed LDs in the Darius system may move like a goalie in soccer defending a specific range, awaiting pot luck. Says the spider to the fly.

An LD might be able to lay a load of pods quickly and scoot away before those pods light off. Like I suggested in another thread. The Megan maneuver.

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penny wrote:I don't know why this is so difficult.

Let's say an LD wins the lottery and finds itself launching from 10 LS away. Theoretically it could be launching from less than half that range. You'd want the missile to launch in that mode even when it lights off.

You want the missile to begin its flight sprinting like Usain Bolt, and not to launch with a leisurely jog then select the kick in mid flight. From 10LS, while in flight, it can be shot down before the mode is selected.

At best you only have 3M km to get that accel up so it won't easily be shot down by point defense. So far so good.

So before I thought that you wanted the maximum possible acceleration at the end of the flight, but here you want it at the beginning? Or do you want it at both the beginning and the end? Could you please just describe what you want the missile to do in simple terms, without any mention of numbers or launching platform. Whether it is launched from an LD or a pod attached to a garbage scow has no affect on what it does in flight.

Originally you were concerned about stored energy that was being wasted, because it was not used before the warhead goes off. How does that fit into what you are saying now?

I put it something like this earlier:

You want a wedge missile with some good initial acceleration, that will get it to the target with energy to spare. But you do not to waste energy by having too much left in the capacitors when the missile attacks the target. So, at some point as it nears the target, you want the missile to shift to the absolute maximum acceleration that technology allows; so there is just enough energy to fire the warhead at the attack point.

Did I get anywhere near what you wanted?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Those million-gravity missiles are between steps 2 and 3. We've seen missile accelerations go up, from the Manticore Ascendant days to current, and even knowing that the Cataphracts were improving. But they go so far out of the known parameters they can't be really said to be extrapolation, and are more like stage 3.

Nah, you can't do that with a missile without a compensator. I have no idea what the limit would be, but I'd expect typical missile acceleration would be an optimistic top end.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:I don't know why this is so difficult.

Let's say an LD wins the lottery and finds itself launching from 10 LS away. Theoretically it could be launching from less than half that range. You'd want the missile to launch in that mode even when it lights off.

You want the missile to begin its flight sprinting like Usain Bolt, and not to launch with a leisurely jog then select the kick in mid flight. From 10LS, while in flight, it can be shot down before the mode is selected.

At best you only have 3M km to get that accel up so it won't easily be shot down by point defense. So far so good.

So before I thought that you wanted the maximum possible acceleration at the end of the flight, but here you want it at the beginning? Or do you want it at both the beginning and the end? Could you please just describe what you want the missile to do in simple terms, without any mention of numbers or launching platform. Whether it is launched from an LD or a pod attached to a garbage scow has no affect on what it does in flight.

Originally you were concerned about stored energy that was being wasted, because it was not used before the warhead goes off. How does that fit into what you are saying now?

I put it something like this earlier:

You want a wedge missile with some good initial acceleration, that will get it to the target with energy to spare. But you do not to waste energy by having too much left in the capacitors when the missile attacks the target. So, at some point as it nears the target, you want the missile to shift to the absolute maximum acceleration that technology allows; so there is just enough energy to fire the warhead at the attack point.

Did I get anywhere near what you wanted?

I think I see the disconnect. And I think I caused the misunderstanding. I apology to both of you, tlb, Thinksmarkedly.

Some time ago in the "?" thread, I indeed posited a missile with the maximum acceleration at the end of its flight. Like a turbo mode that kicks in.

But this missile is posited in another context, launched from much closer ranges trying to offer up another explanation for the sucker punch. The technology may be in development, or Galton was given a limited performance version.

But I see two needs for the LD.

1. A missile that has the best acceleration at the beginning of the flight from a range that still allows some terminal maneuvering. For launches inside the enemy's underwear.

2. A missile that has a turbo mode at the end of its flight from an extended range.

penny wrote:Some time ago in the "?" thread, I indeed posited a missile with the maximum acceleration at the end of its flight. Like a turbo mode that kicks in.

But this missile is posited in another context, launched from much closer ranges trying to offer up another explanation for the sucker punch. The technology may be in development, or Galton was given a limited performance version.

But I see two needs for the LD.

1. A missile that has the best acceleration at the beginning of the flight from a range that still allows some terminal maneuvering. For launches inside the enemy's underwear.

2. A missile that has a turbo mode at the end of its flight from an extended range.

Actually you began the back and forth in this thread with the missile from the"?" as we understood it. Somehow this morphed into wanting the max acceleration at the beginning.

That's fine, you are asking for a missile that can change its power usage and acceleration one or two times during its flight. I personally have no problem with that (although RFC might).

The only caveat I can see is that any missile design is going to have a theoretical maximum acceleration, which cannot be exceeded. This may have to do with the compensator (either the one currently built into the drive or one added on similar to that of a ship) or with the mechanical properties of the components (at high enough acceleration you can start getting plastic deformation of parts).

Finally at high enough speeds you also will have bow waves and particle erosion.

penny wrote:The speed of the LD doesn't come into play, except in its escape attempt.

It does if it has a meaningful velocity towards the ships it's firing at, because it won't be able to avoid closing in more and getting into either CM or, worse, energy range of anyone who survives. I suppose an LD outguns in either terms any single ship that may survive, but the wedge ships will have turned wedge so they can't be shot at directly and their CMs can't destroy a ship's wedge. But a CM can shred an LD, so the LD must stop every single CM coming at it. It must also not take any laser or graser strike, because that will compromise its stealth.

I calculated a base velocity because in the earlier threads we established that a from-standing-start attack would take too long. At 1.5 million km (5 light-seconds), a one-million-gravity missile needs 17.5 seconds and its terminal velocity is a mere 0.57c. It starts from inside CM interception range. 17 seconds isn't enough to fire more than 2 CM waves (more likely a single), though. They'd also enter PDLC range at only 0.5c, which is not difficult for PDLCs to shoot at.

A two-million gravity missile takes 12.4 seconds and reaches 0.8c. It would be a better solution, but we're now talking about nearly 10x the known performance of CMs.

Another point is just how many such missiles can an LD fire at a time? Let's assume this is an Alpha launch, from limpeted pods. And let's assume that the pods launching themselves isn't picked up by the victim ships, which is not a given and can forewarn them, reducing the attacking window. How many missiles is that? 10,000 per LD? 5000?

A Battle Squadron with escorts will shrug off a 5000 missile attack arriving at 0.57c. A BatCruRun will take damage and will likely be mission-ineffective after this, but won't be obliterated. Its return fire, even from destroyers, is worrying to the LD because it can't take any damage that might compromise its stealth, if there are any other forces in the system. And even if it obliterated this BatCruRun... are we talking about a 1:1 exchange in mass? And without reducing the GA's fighting ability?

In any case, it doesn't appear this is what the LD is designed for. It should fire gtorps from tubes, from very far away, and let those close in to energy range. Firing missiles reveals the LD's position and that has to be from knife-fighting range.

I don't need to be close to a rabid dog, but that doesn't mean life won't place me there. Just like submarines of yore, the enemy obliviously turned right towards them.

An LD might find itself in energy range!

That's a bug, not a feature!

You're saying that this 12- or 16-million tonne stealth warship might find itself within knife-fighting range of destroyers and cruisers that don't even know that there's anyone out there, and it can't evade them successfully.

Why would the CO of this LD have got this close to possible detection in the first place? The doctrine must have been to avoid detection at all costs, which is why I think their design calls from staying far out, near the hyperlimit.

Desperation may make this situation arise. But that means the MAlign is losing badly. And they're already losing, it stands to reason a few LDs have already been destroyed and samples of their hardware have been found, so you can't count on their stealth still working well enough.

Besides, I could never get you to see that LDs will have varying missions. The situations that a pre-deployed LD might find itself in when defending Darius is going to be completely different than an LD that is attacking, or one loitering in enemy territory. Especially if the MA has a way to force a traditional missile battle; like kzt's tactic I sank my teeth into of jumping close to a GA fleet hanging out at the edge of the system waiting to translate back out. At Galton, they had planned for a traditional missile battle. But although Honor doesn't know who her daddy is, she damn well knows she wasn't born yesterday.

Yes, you've never managed to convince me of differing strategies but that's not your fault. It stems from the fact that those ships are fragile and expensive. They are built on a single advantage: their stealth. If you remove the stealth, they can't win against a GA DDron.

But pre-deployed LDs in the Darius system may move like a goalie in soccer defending a specific range, awaiting pot luck. Says the spider to the fly.

An LD might be able to lay a load of pods quickly and scoot away before those pods light off. Like I suggested in another thread. The Megan maneuver.

.

You don't need LDs in your home system for that task. The pods can have been pre-placed by shuttles and tugs.

Dunno who brought it up last, but it has never sit well with me that LDs will not have screens. It isn't that I disagree. But is it possible?

I suppose an LD will carry a lot of those long-legged CMs that we were shown at Galton. Something.

But why can't an LD have Sharks and even Ghosts as screens? Would their accel be the same? Even if not, an LD isn't actually maneuvering at its max accel all the time. And a shell of Sharks can carry CMs to thicken the missile defense? (Learning from your enemy.) And a Ghost can sacrifice itself if it appears the enemy has detected something.

This probably won't be possible in enemy territory, but in the Darius system?

penny wrote:Dunno who brought it up last, but it has never sit well with me that LDs will not have screens. It isn't that I disagree. But is it possible?

I suppose they will have particle screens, if that's what you meant. Not wedges, because the geometry doesn't appear to work for that.

But they probably still have nodes, because they have to mount Warshawski sails and Warshawskis.

I suppose an LD will carry a lot of those long-legged CMs that we were shown at Galton. Something.

Yes, they have to have CMs. I don't see any reason not to have them and PDLCs. The problem is if they have to use them, then they've already been detected and the lack of wedge means [i]all/[i] aspects of the ship are available to be fired at, which makes defence extremely difficult. Basically, virtually no shipkiller will miss, so the interception ratio has to be near 100%.

I suppose it could mount a bubblewall, so that means it's still a Gone To Hell plan.

But why can't an LD have Sharks and even Ghosts as screens. Would their accel be the same? Even if not, an LD isn't actually maneuvering at its max accel all the time. And a shell of Sharks can carry CMs to thicken the missile defense? (Learning from your enemy.) And a Ghost can sacrifice itself if it appears the enemy has detected something.

This probably won't be possible in enemy territory, but in the Darius system?

Oh, you mean screening / escort ships. Sure, why not. I think we can reasonably say their acceleration will be the same because it's limited by the grav plates.

This does make interception better, but not sufficiently so, not to go against an equal number of conventional, GA ships.

But again, why do you need LDs for this? If you have those missiles and shoals, just fire them from pods.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Dunno who brought it up last, but it has never sit well with me that LDs will not have screens. It isn't that I disagree. But is it possible?

I suppose they will have particle screens, if that's what you meant. Not wedges, because the geometry doesn't appear to work for that.

But they probably still have nodes, because they have to mount Warshawski sails and Warshawskis.

I suppose an LD will carry a lot of those long-legged CMs that we were shown at Galton. Something.

Yes, they have to have CMs. I don't see any reason not to have them and PDLCs. The problem is if they have to use them, then they've already been detected and the lack of wedge means [i]all/[i] aspects of the ship are available to be fired at, which makes defence extremely difficult. Basically, virtually no shipkiller will miss, so the interception ratio has to be near 100%.

I suppose it could mount a bubblewall, so that means it's still a Gone To Hell plan.

But why can't an LD have Sharks and even Ghosts as screens. Would their accel be the same? Even if not, an LD isn't actually maneuvering at its max accel all the time. And a shell of Sharks can carry CMs to thicken the missile defense? (Learning from your enemy.) And a Ghost can sacrifice itself if it appears the enemy has detected something.

This probably won't be possible in enemy territory, but in the Darius system?

Oh, you mean screening / escort ships. Sure, why not. I think we can reasonably say their acceleration will be the same because it's limited by the grav plates.

This does make interception better, but not sufficiently so, not to go against an equal number of conventional, GA ships.

But again, why do you need LDs for this? If you have those missiles and shoals, just fire them from pods.

Yes, screening elements.

LDs for tactical mobility. Pods do not have tactical mobility.