Attacking Darius:

My doctrine of the MAN

Objectives: Major systems. Production facilities. Coordinated attacks in opening phase of war.

The strategy I think the MAN will use in the opening phase of the war is to send the LDs in to attack a system with surprise. The LDs will unleash an Alpha launch from the edge of the system. Much like Honor. This launch will utilize the element of surprise as a force multiplier. It will destroy the system's infrastructure and possibly take out enemy warships which are sitting with wedges down, and even mission kill many ships that had wedges up but were not cleared for action.

Then the wedge based pod-laying MAN ships who are waiting in hyper will attack, where hopefully the enemy's defenses are whittled down.

Then the LDs and Sharks and Ghosts will join the fray, swashbuckling their way to victory.

I don't think an attack on rear areas should be a prelude to the major operations because of the risk of setting off a Case Zulu.

These operations will reduce the effectiveness of any later massed attacks on Darius.

Summary: An LD will move in system after infrastructure and ships are destroyed.

In short, in the opening phase of the war, LDs will be used to soften a completely oblivious, unsuspecting enemy up. Before moving in adding support to pod-laying wedge based ships to finish off the job. Perhaps five to ten LDs with an Alpha launch of pods with invisible colliers dumping pods out as well!!!

Caveat: There is no need for control links on fixed targets.


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You should reconsider. Case Zulu offers a glorious chance to destroy the entire RMN fleet as it is defenseless and trapped in the exit lane. It you can somehow sneak a bunch of grasers into position...

kzt wrote:You should reconsider. Case Zulu offers a glorious chance to destroy the entire RMN fleet as it is defenseless and trapped in the exit lane. It you can somehow sneak a bunch of grasers into position...

Brilliant! I still think it is possible for an LD to sneak into position and hide behind the immense gravity of the MWJ, and have itself a snipering good time.

It would be the Spider's most lethal web!



Addendum to MAN objectives

Slot a Spider into its proposed web in case of a Case Zulu. Begin rear area assaults. Wars have always had important bridges to destroy. The MA has always chosen to turn matters onto its head. Since it cannot destroy the most important bridge in GA territory, it chooses to hide behind it, picking off valuable targets. It is a Spider waiting for a convoy of flies.





NOTES:

HIGH RISK. EXTREMELY HIGH REWARD.

We know which commander who will be tasked for this mission. He can sneak up on a skunk and steal his stink.


The LDs will have varying missions.

penny wrote:Dunno who brought it up last, but it has never sit well with me that LDs will not have screens. It isn't that I disagree. But is it possible?

I suppose an LD will carry a lot of those long-legged CMs that we were shown at Galton. Something.

But why can't an LD have Sharks and even Ghosts as screens? Would their accel be the same? Even if not, an LD isn't actually maneuvering at its max accel all the time. And a shell of Sharks can carry CMs to thicken the missile defense? (Learning from your enemy.) And a Ghost can sacrifice itself if it appears the enemy has detected something.

This probably won't be possible in enemy territory, but in the Darius system?

Sharks and Ghosts can keep up with an LD just fine -- they're all limited by the acceleration their crews can take.

But a Ghost would be virtually useless as a defensiving screening asset. It has no offensive weapons and barely any missile defense -- it can't defend itself, much less provide area coverage to defend a capital unit.

Sharks might have better defenses; I don't know that we're told one way or the other. OTOH they only built 28 Sharks total - so they're not going to be enough to provide much of a screen for 50 or more LDs. And the Shark design hardly seems optimized for it - being very much a compromise test-bed design.


I'm not saying that the MAlign won't have spider powered escorts to operate with the LD (though I hadn't actually actually considered that before). I'm just saying that if they do it would virtually certainly be a new ship class or two we haven't yet heard of which is designed specifically for that escort role

penny wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But again, why do you need LDs for this? If you have those missiles and shoals, just fire them from pods.

Yes, screening elements.

LDs for tactical mobility. Pods do not have tactical mobility.

I repeat: why do you need this? For offence, see a later reply. But this thread and this particular subsection of it are about the Defence of Darius. If the MAlign has cracked the secret of a true MDM (and it appears they have), then range is not a problem. Size is also not a problem for system defence missiles, since they don't need to be fired from tubes. So just put them in shoals, close enough to the assets that must be defended so that they can reach the attacking ships within reasonable time.

The GF withstood no problem slow Cataphracts in the quantities that Galton was able to produce, from the hyperlimit. A true MDM would arrive faster (less time, higher final velocity), especially if it is a 4-stage MDM, making interception far more difficult. Designing a humongous missile that can only be fired from pods is much easier than a tube-fired version, so you can bet this is what they come up with first. In fact, the biggest challenge for the MAN is actually the time it takes to produce those missiles in the first place. It doesn't matter whether they're capable of being fired from an LD tube or not if the stocks are insufficient to take on the GF.

I could see the defence of Darius use LDs to come up close and fire missiles... if that's a measure of desperation.

And it won't work. Not only because the good guys must win in the end, but also because 250 LDs (and I don't think they'll get to 50) can't take on a similar number of capital ships plus 5x their number in escorts. Plus, 250 LDs are 250 chances of "hmm... that's weird."

penny wrote:My proposed doctrine of the MAN

Objectives: Major systems. Production facilities. Coordinated attacks in opening phase of war.

The strategy I think the MAN will use in the opening phase of the war is to send the LDs in to attack a system with surprise. The LDs will unleash an Alpha launch from the edge of the system. Much like Honor. This launch will utilize the element of surprise as a force multiplier. It will destroy the system's infrastructure and possibly take out enemy warships which are sitting with wedges down, and even mission kill many ships that had wedges up but were not cleared for action.

I agree. That's what I've argued is their design doctrine.

The problem is that I don't see any other possible doctrine. They're a one-trick-pony.

Then the wedge based pod-laying MAN ships who are waiting in hyper will attack, where hopefully the enemy's defenses are whittled down.

Good idea. No one has ever said that the MAN will only have spider ships. We know they have proper missiles too (the Ninurta), so why not conventional ships?

Galton had SD(P)s so Darius, by construction, has the same plans. They probably have updated versions, with improvements they decided to withhold from Galton. The question is only that of production: when did they start building those, how many did they have, and does their production compete with that of LDs?

I also have to ask what the strategic objective for those ships is. What is the objective that the MAlign has, in those systems?

Then the LDs and Sharks and Ghosts will join the fray, swashbuckling their way to victory.

Why? If the defences have been twice whittled by the stealth, sneak attack, then by the conventional one, why risk your stealth ships? Those are "Ships that must not be captured."

If the risk is so low that they won't be captured or damaged permitting a proper sensor reading, then the spider ships aren't necessary to completely subdue the system in the first place. If the risk is too high, then they shouldn't go; instead they should come back at a later time and perform the same operation again.

I don't think an attack on rear areas should be a prelude to the major operations because of the risk of setting off a Case Zulu.

These operations will reduce the effectiveness of any later massed attacks on Darius.

True, but the question is whether it will be sufficient.

Either Darius has been found by this time or it hasn't. If it has, the defenders may decide that it's best to go out and cut the head of the snake off in Darius, removing the MAN's support bases, so those LDs die on the vine. It's not Mutually Assured Destruction, because the GA has far more systems than can be attacked without resupply.

If it hasn't been found, then the consequences of an attack can be irrelevant by the time it will have been found.

So, no, I don't think the objective of such attacks will be dependent on the defence of Darius. The attacks will happen, but the objective will be a different one.

Summary: An LD will move in system after infrastructure and ships are destroyed.

I repeat: why? What's there in such system for it to do?

kzt wrote:You should reconsider. Case Zulu offers a glorious chance to destroy the entire RMN fleet as it is defenseless and trapped in the exit lane. It you can somehow sneak a bunch of grasers into position...

You can't fit a whole fleet in the exit lane. Well... ok, it depends on the size of the fleet. 25 SD(P)s from the Eighth performed a mass transit and that's a huge prize. But it was not the entire Eighth.

TBH, for anyone except the GA powers and the SLN, 25 SD(P)s is either their entire navy or more than they have in the first place. Though it also means they'd never push their entire navy in a mass transit.

penny wrote:Brilliant! I still think it is possible for an LD to sneak into position and hide behind the immense gravity of the MWJ, and have itself a snipering good time.

It would be the Spider's most lethal web!

Yes and no. Yes, it could be done, but not the way you've described.

The LDs can approach from n-space like the Sharks and Ghosts did during Operation Oyster Bay. It would take them three months, but they'd get there.

The entire Junction is a light-second in diameter, so a ship or warhead standing a further light-second from there is still in energy weapons range of everything. You get a squadron of LDs to close by, then cause the Case Zulu mass transit, then fire. I'm pretty sure you can take out all the ships in the exit lane.

Then you promptly die, because the forts that had bubblewalls up (which would be all of them in this case) and the ships that had left the exit lane and brought wedge and sidewalls up return fire.

Ok, so instead of closing with the LDs, they stand off half a light minute, then launch graser torpedoes to actually fire. 25 torpedoes should be doable for them.

HIGH RISK. EXTREMELY HIGH REWARD.

I would even say that, as I described above, it's low risk.

The LDs will have varying missions.

Yes, but it's the same tactic.

penny wrote:Dunno who brought it up last, but it has never sit well with me that LDs will not have screens. It isn't that I disagree. But is it possible?

I suppose an LD will carry a lot of those long-legged CMs that we were shown at Galton. Something.

But why can't an LD have Sharks and even Ghosts as screens? Would their accel be the same? Even if not, an LD isn't actually maneuvering at its max accel all the time. And a shell of Sharks can carry CMs to thicken the missile defense? (Learning from your enemy.) And a Ghost can sacrifice itself if it appears the enemy has detected something.

This probably won't be possible in enemy territory, but in the Darius system?

Jonathan_S wrote:Sharks and Ghosts can keep up with an LD just fine -- they're all limited by the acceleration their crews can take.

That is what I thought, but since many people are advocating that LDs would not have escort ships, it made me think they couldn't keep up. Which is the only reason I can think of that would keep them out of the role.

Jonathan_S wrote:But a Ghost would be virtually useless as a defensiving screening asset. It has no offensive weapons and barely any missile defense -- it can't defend itself, much less provide area coverage to defend a capital unit.

I wholeheartedly disagree here! We're talking about the Mesan Alignment and Alphas! People keep complaining that I keep throwing the fact that all of the Onion's people are Alphas. Yet, I keep seeing the need to do so. Alphas will not miss a single trick. They work smart. Not hard.

But I digress.

The Ghost would be virtually useless as a defensive asset.

A Ghost is the perfect defensive asset!

The best defense is to have the best offense.

(See Eighth Fleet )

...it has no offensive weapons.

Yet the converse of the above is also true ...

The best offense is to have the best defense.

A Ghost's defensive capabilities lies in the fact that it can be sacrificed. It is the perfect sacrificial lamb. Very low cost. Very little crew. Very high build rate.

Sacrificing itself is an offensive decision to execute a defensive maneuver.

(See Tom Cruise's maneuver to save Goose in Top Gun: Maverick)

If the Ghosts have as good a stealth as the LDs, and if in the heat of battle the GA detects something, a Ghost can sacrifice itself while the LDs move away.

As cheap sacrificial lambs, Ghosts can lure prey into the Spider's web of a shell of LDs. Losing a Ghost to save an LD is no bother. As bait, losing a Ghost for several Cruisers or an SD or two would be great. If a Ghost is successful enough to lure an entire squadron into a Spider's web will get him promoted to Captain and possibly an LD command.

Remember on the first page I informed you that Sharks are hungry officers looking for a promotion?


Well, Ghosts are hungry officers looking for a Shark to command.


ALPHAS

Jonathan_S wrote:Sharks might have better defenses; I don't know that we're told one way or the other. OTOH they only built 28 Sharks total - so they're not going to be enough to provide much of a screen for 50 or more LDs. And the Shark design hardly seems optimized for it - being very much a compromise test-bed design.

Well, 28 Sharks would be perfect in an escort role for the MA's equivalent of Eighth Fleet in rear area raids.

Jonathan_S wrote:I'm not saying that the MAlign won't have spider powered escorts to operate with the LD (though I hadn't actually actually considered that before). I'm just saying that if they do it would virtually certainly be a new ship class or two we haven't yet heard of which is designed specifically for that escort role.

That'd be even better! A class of spider-driven escort ships gives me a woody!

But if the MA's total order of battle will suffer from numbers, they can certainly deploy the Sharks as escorts for any single prong of attack. Like Eighth Fleet's equivalent. Which I propose would be a single LD. 28 Sharks can certainly escort a single LD.

And those Sharks can be configured for different roles.


1. Offensive role. Missile Pods.

2. Missile defense. CMs.

penny wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:But again, why do you need LDs for this? If you have those missiles and shoals, just fire them from pods.

Yes, screening elements.

LDs for tactical mobility. Pods do not have tactical mobility.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:I repeat: why do you need this? For offence, see a later reply. But this thread and this particular subsection of it are about the Defence of Darius. If the MAlign has cracked the secret of a true MDM (and it appears they have), then range is not a problem. Size is also not a problem for system defence missiles, since they don't need to be fired from tubes. So just put them in shoals, close enough to the assets that must be defended so that they can reach the attacking ships within reasonable time.

The GF withstood no problem slow Cataphracts in the quantities that Galton was able to produce, from the hyperlimit. A true MDM would arrive faster (less time, higher final velocity), especially if it is a 4-stage MDM, making interception far more difficult. Designing a humongous missile that can only be fired from pods is much easier than a tube-fired version, so you can bet this is what they come up with first. In fact, the biggest challenge for the MAN is actually the time it takes to produce those missiles in the first place. It doesn't matter whether they're capable of being fired from an LD tube or not if the stocks are insufficient to take on the GF.

I could see the defence of Darius use LDs to come up close and fire missiles... if that's a measure of desperation.

And it won't work. Not only because the good guys must win in the end, but also because 250 LDs (and I don't think they'll get to 50) can't take on a similar number of capital ships plus 5x their number in escorts. Plus, 250 LDs are 250 chances of "hmm... that's weird."

The best defense is to have the best offense!

On the gridiron, if your offense keeps the ball (the initiative) for the entire game. How can the other team win? They will always be off-balance and unable to execute their own plays (operations).

The defense of Darius will always be inseparably intertwined with offensive operations on the GA. You can't attack me if you are defending yourself. And if my campaigns are successful, you won't have anything to attack me with.

The MA can not afford to give the GA the initiative. The MAN will absolutely positively want to strike first!

When attacking enemy systems, those very huge masses of ones system defense pods have no use. System defense pods have no strategic mobility ... available behind enemy lines.

Can't always count on colliers. If so, I agree.

Jonathan_S wrote:But a Ghost would be virtually useless as a defensiving screening asset. It has no offensive weapons and barely any missile defense -- it can't defend itself, much less provide area coverage to defend a capital unit.

penny wrote:A Ghost's defensive capabilities lies in the fact that it can be sacrificed. It is the perfect sacrificial lamb. Very low cost. Very little crew. Very high build rate.

Sacrificing itself is an offensive decision to execute a defensive maneuver.

This probably won't be possible in enemy territory, but in the Darius system?

-- snip --

I wholeheartedly disagree here! We're talking about the Mesan Alignment and Alphas! People keep complaining that I keep throwing the fact that all of the Onion's people are Alphas. Yet, I keep seeing the need to do so. Alphas will not miss a single trick. They work smart. Not hard.

What in the name of madness are you advocating here? A screening element is something like a destroyer with all weapons protecting an aircraft carrier, it is not a coast guard cutter that says "here, destroy me instead".

How is presenting a sacrificial lamb, manned by Alphas, a smart tactic? You say it is low cost; but it is very high value, since it contains all of the Malign's top secrets (except for the multi second graser). From Mission of Honor:

Chapter 9 wrote:The Ghost-class ships had no offensive armament at all. They were designed to do precisely what Apparition was doing at this moment, and there was no point pretending they'd be able to fight their way out of trouble if the other side managed to find them in the first place. So they'd been equipped with every stealth system the fertile imaginations of Anastasia Chernevsky and the rest of the MAN's R&D establishment had been able to devise, packed into the smallest possible platform, and if that meant sacrificing armament, so be it. Even their anti-missile defenses represented little more than a token gesture, and everyone aboard Apparition was thoroughly aware of that fact.

PS: They are not all Alphas, there are also Betas and Gammas.