Attacking Darius:

kzt wrote:
It's got a fort-class bubble sidewall. And all the nearby RMN ships would have had a sudden problem some seconds or minute previously. And if you shoot at it it will shoot back. Hope nothing you care about is within say 10-15 KM of the ground-based system.

If it's come to that, you might not be left with any alternative but to try from the ground based system. That it would not be the actual Alignment command ship is a reasonable bet since if an LD were to make itself visible directly overhead it would be taking a big risk, practically inviting someone to take the shots....and then the actual Alpha Commander would be "justified" in destroying all sorts of things on the ground without creating an EE violation---not that they would actually care about an EE violation at that point since they would be well on their way to eliminating any ability of anybody to enforce that on them.

Dealing with Evil Genetic Supermen with fraught with bad occurrences.

tlb wrote:Sharks are described as pod-layers, so it would strange if they did not have defensive weapons. It would be simple for them to have pods of CM's, so they would not have their position directly indicated.

The Ghosts do not have offensive weapons, but they are described as having minor anti missile defenses.

Specifically chapter 9 of Mission of Honor says of Ghosts "Even their antimissile defenses represented little more than a token gesture, and everyone aboard Apparition was thoroughly aware of that fact."

Also while the Sharks weren't intended to be used operationally, they were intended to trial and test out the systems and tactics that would be used on the LDs; and as training ships to get future LD crews up to speed. It would seem a major oversight in both their systems-testing role and their training role to omit antimissile defenses.

Though Brigade XO is right that all the ship mounted antimissile defenses commonly used by navies have enough signature that a stealth ship would give itself away using them -- so unless the MAlign has some not yet discussed stealth antimissile defense a spider ship coming under missile fire is likely having a very, vary bad day. Every time it engages an incoming missile it gives the opponents a better view of it and allows them to further tighten up their firing solutions (and lets the attacking missiles also track it better)

kzt wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:
Having an LD materialize in the High Orbitals around Manticore to demand surrender would possibly have the LD look like a target full of arrow holes just before it disintegrated/vaporized as any RMN ship and some planetary weapons opened up on it. No wedge......humm.

It's got a fort-class bubble sidewall. And all the nearby RMN ships would have had a sudden problem some seconds or minute previously. And if you shoot at it it will shoot back. Hope nothing you care about is within say 10-15 KM of the ground-based system.

We don't actually know the LD will have a fort-class bubble sidewall. All RFC said was that bubble sidewalls are incompatible with using the spider drive.

They may have a bubblewall and simply have to decide when having 'shields up' (which will be observable via their FTL grav emissions; at least if a sensor is close enough) is worth being unable to use the main drive to manouver. Or the MAlign might decide having a non-stealth bubble wall that precludes using the stealthy drive is a dumb idea and choose not to spend the significant volume such generators apparently take.

We just don't know.

Jonathan_S wrote:We don't actually know the LD will have a fort-class bubble sidewall. All RFC said was that bubble sidewalls are incompatible with using the spider drive.

Question: isn't a bubble sidewall also incompatible with using the wedge to move? I thought that a fort can have a bubble sidewall and be stationary or else have regular sidewalls and a wedge and be mobile.

After all, I recently was reminded that a wedge with sidewalls cannot have both its front and back closed at the same time with two more sidewalls.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
So while this could work, and is low risk for the LDs, the chance of success is also pretty low. The chance that you can keep those g-torps loitering outside of detection range, ready to fire, for hours while a hundred warships transit and take up positions defending the junction, is low.

kzt wrote:Not at all. You intend to create a situation where the RMN will suddenly want to bring a bunch of warships through the junction. So you know when it will likely happen and will be prepared to deal with it if it does. If not, well, the Junction infrastructure is always available as a target.

You're still counting on the other side making a mass transit in the first place. If this isn't a well-known hyperbridge or if the CO on the other side doesn't judge it to be urgent enough, they may not do it, and then you only have ships coming in alone. That means you can target one ship with wedge down, and only those others whose aspects happen to line up with where you've placed your spiders.

You're also running the clock on the torpedoes being discovered quite by accident. They aren't zooming in at high speed on a timed pass, because you depend on the time on the other side and the other side may have hit a snag or two. Those torpedoes need to loiter around, just outside of detection range, and they will definitely not have the sensing capability to detect recon drones. Maybe this situation is set up so the other side isn't likely to deploy drones (because they're about to depart anyway), but what if they do and do find the torpedoes?

Like I said, this could work and is low risk, but it's also low probability of success.

And the reward? Anywhere except the MWHJ, you're not going to see more than two squadrons of SD(P)s mass-transit, ever.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:You're still counting on the other side making a mass transit in the first place. If this isn't a well-known hyperbridge or if the CO on the other side doesn't judge it to be urgent enough, they may not do it, and then you only have ships coming in alone. That means you can target one ship with wedge down, and only those others whose aspects happen to line up with where you've placed your spiders.

If they are shooting at ships coming out of the wormhole, then why do you think that it has to be a mass transit? As long as the Malign has suppressed any defender on their side, then they can just wait and shoot. That is why he entered this:

kzt wrote:And the rest of the fleet will keep coming through (they don’t know what is going on as it takes minutes to send a messanger).

But obviously, while this was going on, they would shoot any messanger trying to go back.

You brought up the Battle of the Prime-Ajay Hyper-bridge yourself and there it was accomplished by by LAC's. If this were tried on the side entering the wormhole; then I agree it would be most useful if ships were about to attempt a mass transit, because otherwise they could scatter.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:We don't actually know the LD will have a fort-class bubble sidewall. All RFC said was that bubble sidewalls are incompatible with using the spider drive.

Question: isn't a bubble sidewall also incompatible with using the wedge to move? I thought that a fort can have a bubble sidewall and be stationary or else have regular sidewalls and a wedge and be mobile.

Yes. But forts are supposed to stay in place. And you generally have a fair number of forts, backed up by your mobile naval forces.

If an LD tries to play relocatable fort I don't think it's going to go well for it. And even if it tried to play fort for a large conventional fleet it's not likely to be able to get to a point the enemy must attack, so they can just manouver to stay out of its range. But, more importantly, I suspect its drive takes up vastly more of its hull surface than the beta nodes on a fort (for when it does need to reposition) meaning it's going to have a lot less area to mount weapons and defenses on that a fort of similar tonnage. So a given number of LDs that choose to play fort are going to be less effective than purpose built forts of the same tonnage - even when supported by mobile naval forces.

Though, oddly, RFC implies that a bubble sidewall is compatible with sails -- that you could build a ship optimized for grav wave combat by adding a bubble sidewall to the design. It's just that a) that combat is so rare it's not worth optimizing for; and b) the size of a bubble sidewall generator would displace sufficient other systems that the ship would be significantly weaker than a conventional counterpart of the same tonnage.

THE GRASER MINEFIELD



AKA GRASER GRAVEYARD

You got 3-seconds to live
You got 3-seconds to die

penny wrote:

penny wrote:Dunno who brought it up last, but it has never sit well with me that LDs will not have screens. It isn't that I disagree. But is it possible?

I suppose an LD will carry a lot of those long-legged CMs that we were shown at Galton. Something.

But why can't an LD have Sharks and even Ghosts as screens? Would their accel be the same? Even if not, an LD isn't actually maneuvering at its max accel all the time. And a shell of Sharks can carry CMs to thicken the missile defense? (Learning from your enemy.) And a Ghost can sacrifice itself if it appears the enemy has detected something.

This probably won't be possible in enemy territory, but in the Darius system?

Jonathan_S wrote:Sharks and Ghosts can keep up with an LD just fine -- they're all limited by the acceleration their crews can take.

That is what I thought, but since many people are advocating that LDs would not have escort ships, it made me think they couldn't keep up. Which is the only reason I can think of that would keep them out of the role.

Jonathan_S wrote:The Ghost would be virtually useless as a defensive asset.
...it has no offensive weapons.

Yet the converse of the above is also true ...

The best offense is to have the best defense.

A Ghost's defensive capabilities lies in the fact that it can be sacrificed. It is the perfect sacrificial lamb. Very low cost. Very little crew. Very high build rate.

Sacrificing itself is an offensive decision to execute a defensive maneuver.

Jonathan_S wrote:If you want sacrificial units that can't attack anything build decoys. A MAlign spider-drive Lorelei would be far cheaper and quicker to build than even a Ghost -- and when you scarified it you wouldn't be throwing away a crew that took years to train.

Even if the MAlign can birth clones at arbitrarily high rates they still need for them to grow up, educate them, and then put them through military training -- so they still can't be all that cavalier about sacrificing crew. This isn't Star Wars Clone Troopers that decant from cloning tanks as adults; fully ready for combat.


Now if they end up in desperation then yes, I could easily see the MAlign expending their Ghosts, Sharks, or even LDs in suicidal ways. But if things are that desperate they've likely already lost and all they're doing is slightly delaying the inevitable.

You are not thinking this thing through.

Imagine this. The GA now knows there is at least one warship infesting the waters. Flaming datum.

The GA does not know what is infesting the waters.

It could be a Shark, it could be a whale of a Spider.

Actually there are Sharks, Spiders and Ghosts infesting these waters. GA ships are enroute. They are looking for a ship and they are almost upon you. You can't give them a Lorelei platform. 'Taint nothing wrong with having hordes of Lorelei platforms in the cargo holds. But this is going to cost you a Ghost. Better'n an LD.

It is not suicidal. It is the nature of an escort.

tlb wrote:You brought up the Battle of the Prime-Ajay Hyper-bridge yourself and there it was accomplished by by LAC's. If this were tried on the side entering the wormhole; then I agree it would be most useful if ships were about to attempt a mass transit, because otherwise they could scatter.

Indeed, and that's one way it would work. That's also why assaulting a held wormhole is impossible in the HV.

But having been one of the combatants in the Ajay-Prime battle, the GA should know better than to do a transit without a two-way verification that it is safe. It takes two ships: one to have arrived and raised its wedge and sidewalls, the other to go back and let everyone else know that this has happened.

There should be a protocol for transits into insecure systems. First you transit a few destroyers (possibly in a mini-mass transit), establish a perimeter with recon drones; one goes back and gives the all clear. Then a CLAC transits, deploys a BARCAP to expand the perimeter, while another DDron transits. One ship goes back, gives the all clear again, then heavier ships start transiting: CruRuns, then a BatCruRun, then the BatRons start coming, then the transits start to go down in size again.

Under this protocol, if there's a mass transit, it may not be of capital ships. It stands to reason the other side isn't a friendly territory either. So it depends on whether there will be any ships staying behind to guard that side. IF there aren't, if this entire task force is meant to go through, then the last transit will probably of smaller ships.

I'm surprised this protocol didn't exist. It might have, but the SLN didn't apply it because plot reasons. But the RMN has no excuse (incompetence and negligence aren't excuses).

penny wrote:You are not thinking this thing through.

Sorry, but why would the MAN send defenceless ships if they can build ships with defences? The only reason to send Ghosts into battle if you've run out of other ships. Otherwise, build ships with PDLCs and CM batteries, and with some fire control links so they can control missiles fired from pods previously limpeted to their hulls.

If they can build ships the size of battleships or small dreadnoughts (the Sharks), they can build anything in between too. The Sharks are that big because they were testbeds for the even larger LD class, but that does not appear to be the minimum size. The fact that the Ghosts exist proves that.

So if you want to send escort ships, build proper escort ships.

Imagine this. The GA now knows there is at least one warship infesting the waters. Flaming datum.

The GA does not know what is infesting the waters.

It could be a Shark, it could be a whale of a Spider.

Maybe, but that doesn't change the tactic.

In any case, for there to be a flaming datum, something needs to have been fired. That won't be a Ghost, because that can't fire anything.

Actually there are Sharks, Spiders and Ghosts infesting these waters. GA ships are enroute. They are looking for a ship and they are almost upon you. You can't give them a Lorelei platform. 'Taint nothing wrong with having hordes of Lorelei platforms in the cargo holds. But this is going to cost you a Ghost. Better'n an LD.

It is not suicidal. It is the nature of an escort.

Yes, I can see a Ghost sacrificing itself to give the LD the chance to escape a closing trap. It won't fool the pursuers long, though, because the size of the explosion will be a huge tell. But it might be enough.

But that doesn't mean the LDs should be escorted only by Ghosts. That makes no sense. As I said above, if the missions call for escort ships, the build the proper ships.