Attacking Darius:

tlb wrote:You brought up the Battle of the Prime-Ajay Hyper-bridge yourself and there it was accomplished by by LAC's. If this were tried on the side entering the wormhole; then I agree it would be most useful if ships were about to attempt a mass transit, because otherwise they could scatter.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Indeed, and that's one way it would work. That's also why assaulting a held wormhole is impossible in the HV.

But having been one of the combatants in the Ajay-Prime battle, the GA should know better than to do a transit without a two-way verification that it is safe. It takes two ships: one to have arrived and raised its wedge and sidewalls, the other to go back and let everyone else know that this has happened.

There should be a protocol for transits into insecure systems. First you transit a few destroyers (possibly in a mini-mass transit), establish a perimeter with recon drones; one goes back and gives the all clear. Then a CLAC transits, deploys a BARCAP to expand the perimeter, while another DDron transits. One ship goes back, gives the all clear again, then heavier ships start transiting: CruRuns, then a BatCruRun, then the BatRons start coming, then the transits start to go down in size again.

Under this protocol, if there's a mass transit, it may not be of capital ships. It stands to reason the other side isn't a friendly territory either. So it depends on whether there will be any ships staying behind to guard that side. IF there aren't, if this entire task force is meant to go through, then the last transit will probably of smaller ships.

I'm surprised this protocol didn't exist. It might have, but the SLN didn't apply it because plot reasons. But the RMN has no excuse (incompetence and negligence aren't excuses).

I agree there should be a protocol.

My memory of this incident is hazy; but didn't the SLN actually begin by sending a destroyer through to check and it returned to say the coast was clear because the LAC force were unseen, then the shooting started when the bigger ships came through?

See page 149 in hardback version of UH, 3 pages before section headed "Ajay Terminus Prime-Ajay Hyper Bridge"; two destroyers were sent through and one came back to report.

Pages 141 and 142 have another detailed set of paragraphs on the difficulty of micro-jumping.

tlb wrote:My memory of this incident is hazy; but didn't the SLN actually begin by sending a destroyer through to check and it returned to say the coast was clear because the LAC force were unseen, then the shooting started when the bigger ships came through?

See page 149 in hardback version of UH, 3 pages before section headed "Ajay Terminus Prime-Ajay Hyper Bridge"; two destroyers were sent through and one came back to report.

Pages 141 and 142 have another detailed set of paragraphs on the difficulty of micro-jumping.

They did, but that destroyer got destroyed, then every single ship did too (or disabled). The protocol should have a sufficient force confirmed on the other side, with wedges and sidewalls up, before the big boys start transiting.

The issue may depend on what the perception of the threat level can be. If you're expecting at most 500 missiles per wave, and you know your performance characteristics against missiles fired from 2 million km away, but instead 10,000 missiles rain down on you, your force won't survive. Similarly, if you scan the immediacy of the wormhole and find nothing out to 2 light-seconds, but miss the fact that there are LACs with cruiser-grade grasers only half a light-second away, your force will be inadequate.

That can again repeat against graser torpedoes 2 light-seconds away. The difference is that the RMN sensors are much better than the SLN's, to the point where those weapons must be placed further than the effective range of energy weapons against sidewalls.

tlb wrote:My memory of this incident is hazy; but didn't the SLN actually begin by sending a destroyer through to check and it returned to say the coast was clear because the LAC force were unseen, then the shooting started when the bigger ships came through?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:They did, but that destroyer got destroyed, then every single ship did too (or disabled). The protocol should have a sufficient force confirmed on the other side, with wedges and sidewalls up, before the big boys start transiting.

No matter the protocol, this shows that as long as the firing stations can stay quiet and hidden until the big ships start coming through; then those big ships and any ship that tries to go back to give warning will be hurt badly.

The only question is how long will it take for the smaller ships that were allowed through first to find and neutralize the firing stations. You don't necessarily see a graser fire, except for its effects. In the case of a G-torp, you only see where one had been.

ThinksMarkedly wrote: Similarly, if you scan the immediacy of the wormhole and find nothing out to 2 light-seconds, but miss the fact that there are LACs with cruiser-grade grasers only half a light-second away, your force will be inadequate.

That can again repeat against graser torpedoes 2 light-seconds away. The difference is that the RMN sensors are much better than the SLN's, to the point where those weapons must be placed further than the effective range of energy weapons against sidewalls.

@ 2 light seconds, A Graser Torpedo only works against a target without a sidewall. Its acceleration is slower than that of a warship. Attackers advantage though. If anyone has a hint they are there... Good Luck, but that is just it, good luck knowing they are there. But once known, tactics of just changing heading up down, port starboard every so often completely destroys ability of a Graser torp to target much of anything. Convoy's tactics of zig zagging in WWII comes to mind.

The ability of a larger platform to target something from 2 ls away is far superior to that of a Missiles ability to do so. Better sensors to begin with. Fewer vibrations due to mass alone for a known reference point regarding errors accumulated from launch platform. Its not like they get to fire, watch where it is firing via sensors and then change the shot. No feedback = BIG targetting problems here in engineering land. Not only that we have to question the divergence of a graser torps beam compared to a regular cruiser broadside grade Graser. Normally, a targetting tracking via active sensors is happening during a Graser Duel with another ship. With a Graser torp, that would defeat its purpose. Though due to timing it might not matter much if they do go active.

A Graser torp made to function for a mere 3 seconds before exploding and melting down is entirely different fish than something which has to take battle damage and continue to function. What compromises were used? Beam divergence may be such a compromise. How much mass does a Cruiser grade GRASER even have to begin with? BC's do not have many of them, let alone CA's.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Similarly, if you scan the immediacy of the wormhole and find nothing out to 2 light-seconds, but miss the fact that there are LACs with cruiser-grade grasers only half a light-second away, your force will be inadequate.

That can again repeat against graser torpedoes 2 light-seconds away. The difference is that the RMN sensors are much better than the SLN's, to the point where those weapons must be placed further than the effective range of energy weapons against sidewalls.

Why do you say that a graser torpedo can be reliably found at ranges up to 2 LS? Where is this number presented? Yes, the GA has very good sensors; but at that range aren't we talking detecting a wedge? At that range can the GA detect even their own Ghost Rider drones?

tlb wrote:The only question is how long will it take for the smaller ships that were allowed through first to find and neutralize the firing stations. You don't necessarily see a graser fire, except for its effects. In the case of a G-torp, you only see where one had been.

Right. That same question applies to the attackers: how long will they wait before firing? Because once they do, everyone who didn't get destroyed will send out everything they have to find those torpedoes and may find them. At 3 minutes between transits, this may mean a single kill before they're found.

The defenders may also use Dazzlers defensively, firing them from close to the exit lane about the time that the new ships are supposed to appear so that the g-torps from far away can't get a proper lock. Those torpedoes also have a 4-second round-trip time, which may be enough for the closer ships to warn the incoming ship to immediately go evasive (on thrusters), which further deteriorates the firing solution. 2 seconds at 100 gravities is more than one full ship length, let alone any of the other dimensions.

Therefore, the attackers can't count on more than one shot succeeding at all. They may keep a few weapons for a second shot, but they should plan to fire the rest on the first shot and try to take out as many as possible, while the other side is still unaware. It may be possible to manoeuvre some of the torpedoes to get up-the-kilt or down-the-throat shots at ships that have already transited.

But said manoeuvring and the time that they are loitering are increasing the chances of detection. So the attackers probably need to have a threshold when they'll attack, whether a mass-transit has occurred or not.

tlb wrote:Why do you say that a graser torpedo can be reliably found at ranges up to 2 LS? Where is this number presented? Yes, the GA has very good sensors; but at that range aren't we talking detecting a wedge? At that range can the GA detect even their own Ghost Rider drones?

Nowhere. This was a conservative guesstimate where the likelihood of detection is low enough that those platforms can loiter practically indefinitely undetected, but remain in energy range. At this point, no one knows what the range of GA sensors versus G-torp is, so the MAN must plan conservatively.

They also don't know the reverse: the range of their sensors versus Ghost Riders. So they can't tell when a GR drone is closing in for a look and may detect the platform.

After a few engagements, they may realise this distance can be lower. But the first engagement needs to be conservative. And the first engagement may be the only time this tactic will work.

penny wrote:And yes, that fact can yield wildly divergent microjumps. If the scalar is large enough then the negative result of that scalar can place us quite some distance away. But the hypotenuse of the scalar will always be the same.

That knowledge still does not solve our problem. If as you said the wall is as wildly chaotic as you claim it to be. In which case, the fluctuations could vary wildly from one jump to another. But I personally do not think the wall is fluctuating so much in a small timeframe. Rather than wildly varying... in time measured in hours, days, weeks or even months. Or the equation will have changed before the second jump in a dogleg. Therefore, one reason a ship might hyper in and out is to measure the degree of fluctuations currently operating on the wall.

And of course, that leaves the possibly the fluctuations which were the same for weeks is due to change right at the moment a ship decides to jump. Rotten luck, for any ship not belonging to the GA and friends.

If the wall isn't at least somewhat stable enough in that respect, then I'll go ahead and order another prescription of huge pills to swallow to suspend my disbelief as far as storyline. Stat!

At any rate, the discussion that spurred these 'entangled photons' is kzt's brilliant suggestion of utilizing just as brilliant a tactic of jumping in the midst of a GA fleet who is stooging around the edge of the galaxy in Darius as it did at Galton, while basking in its on hubris.

I agree that even an Alpha astrogator's attempt will depend on the most impossible to adjust for quantum fluctuations of the plot device.

I remember reading somewhere (I don't remember exactly where - one of the novels, one of the info dumps from RFC outside the books, or the technical articles in the antologies - I'm just rather confident it was canon/word of god) an explanation:

After each transition, the hyper log needs some time to calibrate to the exact conditions in the hyperspace, so any jump shorter than that calibration time cannot fully use the hyperlog, thus losing possible precision. This implies that those conditions change and cannot be predicted / memorized (at least in practical application). This also explans why micro jumps are relatively inprecise, and some fleets take a short "navigational break" on an uninhabited system close to the destination - very long hyperspace travel also accumulates errors, but a travel between star systems is always long enough for the hyperlog to fully calibrate.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Nowhere. This was a conservative guesstimate where the likelihood of detection is low enough that those platforms can loiter practically indefinitely undetected, but remain in energy range. At this point, no one knows what the range of GA sensors versus G-torp is, so the MAN must plan conservatively.

They also don't know the reverse: the range of their sensors versus Ghost Riders. So they can't tell when a GR drone is closing in for a look and may detect the platform.

After a few engagements, they may realise this distance can be lower. But the first engagement needs to be conservative. And the first engagement may be the only time this tactic will work.

Maybe we will see, maybe we won't. That is up to him. But if I were planning it, I would put the G-torps at a reasonable range for their weapons and have a Ghost lurking far enough to see the results, without being discovered; so the Malign will get a report of how well it worked.

I just wish the next book were higher in priority than a trilogy on Edward Saganami, not that he is unimportant. The problem for me is that puts four books ahead of the one I most want to read.

penny wrote:An Alpha with a genetically engineered brain would never swallow hard. An Alpha would be excited by the mental feedback.
[...]
The speed at which an Alpha who is genengineered to do this job would be off the scale. Without hesitation. Brutally confident.
[...]
IF an Alpha even had to utilize a computer rather than his/her own brain. An Alpha might be able to perform these calculations without computer assistance, and much faster. The response time of an Alpha should be increased significantly. Time in the middle of a battle is a valuable commodity.
[...]
An Alpha astrogator would NEVER make a mistake, and would be appalled at the idea of needing a babysitter to save them.
[...]
An Alpha would never forget.
[...]
Summary: I have been spinning my wheels on something so simple it is ridiculous. After All the threads speculating about the MA's genetic tampering. sigh

In the heat of battle, any time saved can be the difference between life and death. An astrogator that is an Alpha doesn't make mistakes. An Alpha might even anticipate requests and have the results ready ahead of time.

You seem to be overly confident in the capabilities of the alpha lines.

I remember several occasions where alphas did make mistakes, even the Detweilers admitted it a few times.

And they're still trying to improve on the intelligence, the McBride "daughter" was an example of how those experiments still fail - if alphas were so perfect, neither would those experiments fail nor would they be needed in the first place.

As I'm not an alpha, your position on this leaves me a bit confused.