Attacking Darius:

markusschaber wrote:

penny wrote:An Alpha with a genetically engineered brain would never swallow hard. An Alpha would be excited by the mental feedback.
[...]
The speed at which an Alpha who is genengineered to do this job would be off the scale. Without hesitation. Brutally confident.
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IF an Alpha even had to utilize a computer rather than his/her own brain. An Alpha might be able to perform these calculations without computer assistance, and much faster. The response time of an Alpha should be increased significantly. Time in the middle of a battle is a valuable commodity.
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An Alpha astrogator would NEVER make a mistake, and would be appalled at the idea of needing a babysitter to save them.
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An Alpha would never forget.
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Summary: I have been spinning my wheels on something so simple it is ridiculous. After All the threads speculating about the MA's genetic tampering. sigh

In the heat of battle, any time saved can be the difference between life and death. An astrogator that is an Alpha doesn't make mistakes. An Alpha might even anticipate requests and have the results ready ahead of time.

You seem to be overly confident in the capabilities of the alpha lines.

I remember several occasions where alphas did make mistakes, even the Detweilers admitted it a few times.

And they're still trying to improve on the intelligence, the McBride "daughter" was an example of how those experiments still fail - if alphas were so perfect, neither would those experiments fail nor would they be needed in the first place.

As I'm not an alpha, your position on this leaves me a bit confused.

I am confident about their abilities. And not simply because I want this enemy to be worthy for a change. Instead of an 800-pound pussycat.

But, yes, a lot of people have pointed out the fact that the MA made mistakes. And they did. But I think that is unfair and more than a bit misleading. The kind of mistakes they made, as far as I am concerned, is understandable. It is difficult to prevent something from going wrong in a centuries old plan. The MA can't possible micro manage a centuries old plan without making mistakes.

But as far as I am concerned, they won't make mistakes in their tactical or strategic doctrine. I do not think an Alpha will make tactical errors on the battlefield where it will count the most.

To be sure, they made a strategic error when they prematurely unveiled their abilities and tech and attacked the MBS with Oyster Bay. But that was not their fault. It was plot driven.

tlb wrote:Maybe we will see, maybe we won't. That is up to him. But if I were planning it, I would put the G-torps at a reasonable range for their weapons and have a Ghost lurking far enough to see the results, without being discovered; so the Malign will get a report of how well it worked.

I actually think that would be an LD. After all, something brought those g-torps in the first place and carrying them around the Galaxy undetected is the purpose in life of an LD.

If it stays half a light-minute away, with a suitable relay drone, it can still send commands, receive telemetry, and remain completely undetected. And outside of the hyperlimit, so it can run into hyper if anyone comes after it.

It's only at 141 seconds of missile flight time, so it can't transition into hyper if 5000 missiles are unexpectedly launched its way. But the chance of that is pretty low.

I just wish the next book were higher in priority than a trilogy on Edward Saganami, not that he is unimportant. The problem for me is that puts four books ahead of the one I most want to read.

Like George R. R. Martin. All the other books are interesting, but Winds of Winter is what everyone is waiting for.

penny wrote:I am confident about their abilities. And not simply because I want this enemy to be worthy for a change. Instead of an 800-pound pussycat.

But, yes, a lot of people have pointed out the fact that the MA made mistakes. And they did. But I think that is unfair and more than a bit misleading. The kind of mistakes they made, as far as I am concerned, is understandable. It is difficult to prevent something from going wrong in a centuries old plan. The MA can't possible micro manage a centuries old plan without making mistakes.

But as far as I am concerned, they won't make mistakes in their tactical or strategic doctrine. I do not think an Alpha will make tactical errors on the battlefield where it will count the most.

To be sure, they made a strategic error when they prematurely unveiled their abilities and tech and attacked the MBS with Oyster Bay. But that was not their fault. It was plot driven.

I still disagree. An Alpha is a very intelligent person, can probably learn very quickly, think quickly, and retain a lot of information. I do think they will be a tough enemy to crack. They will not roll over like the SLN or like the initial PN. Instead, they will probably fight at a level similar to the RHN under Theisman in 1919-1921.

That doesn't translate to never making mistakes, tactically or strategically. A mistake is usually seen in hindsight, when all the facts are known. In the heat of battle, they won't know everything, so they can and will make tactical and strategic mistakes. They may be induced to error too.

They will also initially lack a lot of experience compared to seasoned GF officers. Classroom training may not substitute for trial-by-fire and the crucible of 20 years of war against a peer power. They will know the result of all those battles, but not what went through the minds of the COs in question, who will have passed on the knowledge to their juniors but never put in a report.

Additionally, most Alphas and in particular the Inner Onion do not lack for arrogance. That may (and has and will again) create blindspots in their thinking. If they're smart, the Inner Onion will select the top MAN officers based on their lack of perceived arrogance and ability to humbly learn from their mistakes. But based on the few MAN officers we've been introduced to, I don't think that will be the case.

Finally, there's the Inner Onion and Detweiler-level Alignment itself. Those are making the long-term strategic decisions that the MAN is to implement. And we know they live in an echo chamber and we know they've made mistakes. They've even recognised it themselves, q.v. Benjamin Detweiler's trip to Galton for his mea culpa in launching the Beowulf Strike. I've also argued that they see the Galaxy through the prism of stealth and subterfuge, so will require the same of the MAN and their officers, instead of proper military doctrine.

Garbage in, garbage out.

tlb wrote:Maybe we will see, maybe we won't. That is up to him. But if I were planning it, I would put the G-torps at a reasonable range for their weapons and have a Ghost lurking far enough to see the results, without being discovered; so the Malign will get a report of how well it worked.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I actually think that would be an LD. After all, something brought those g-torps in the first place and carrying them around the Galaxy undetected is the purpose in life of an LD.

If it stays half a light-minute away, with a suitable relay drone, it can still send commands, receive telemetry, and remain completely undetected. And outside of the hyperlimit, so it can run into hyper if anyone comes after it.

It's only at 141 seconds of missile flight time, so it can't transition into hyper if 5000 missiles are unexpectedly launched its way. But the chance of that is pretty low.

How about putting a Ghost where you have the LD (because it can transition faster)? Then putting the LD out far enough, so it could make the transition.

There is also the trick that the SLN invasion fleet at Manticore used, which cuts the time to transition in half.

penny wrote:It is difficult to prevent something from going wrong in a centuries old plan. The MA can't possible micro manage a centuries old plan without making mistakes.

-- snip --

To be sure, they made a strategic error when they prematurely unveiled their abilities and tech and attacked the MBS with Oyster Bay. But that was not their fault. It was plot driven.

They certainly thought they could, even believing that anything unexpected could be corrected.

That specifically includes Oyster Bay, which was driven by their attempting to correct for their plan going horrible wrong. Manticore was about to conquer Haven (which was not their chosen opponent for the League) and was now much too close to Mesa, upsetting the timing of Houdini.

PS: You could say that everything that went wrong with their plan was "plot driven"; but they still thought that they could make the plan work, no matter what went wrong.

For straight numerics, an organic brain cannot compete with silicon.

penny wrote:

markusschaber wrote:
You seem to be overly confident in the capabilities of the alpha lines.

I remember several occasions where alphas did make mistakes, even the Detweilers admitted it a few times.

And they're still trying to improve on the intelligence, the McBride "daughter" was an example of how those experiments still fail - if alphas were so perfect, neither would those experiments fail nor would they be needed in the first place.

As I'm not an alpha, your position on this leaves me a bit confused.

I am confident about their abilities. And not simply because I want this enemy to be worthy for a change. Instead of an 800-pound pussycat.

But, yes, a lot of people have pointed out the fact that the MA made mistakes. And they did. But I think that is unfair and more than a bit misleading. The kind of mistakes they made, as far as I am concerned, is understandable. It is difficult to prevent something from going wrong in a centuries old plan. The MA can't possible micro manage a centuries old plan without making mistakes.

But as far as I am concerned, they won't make mistakes in their tactical or strategic doctrine. I do not think an Alpha will make tactical errors on the battlefield where it will count the most.

To be sure, they made a strategic error when they prematurely unveiled their abilities and tech and attacked the MBS with Oyster Bay. But that was not their fault. It was plot driven.

tlb wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I actually think that would be an LD. After all, something brought those g-torps in the first place and carrying them around the Galaxy undetected is the purpose in life of an LD.

If it stays half a light-minute away, with a suitable relay drone, it can still send commands, receive telemetry, and remain completely undetected. And outside of the hyperlimit, so it can run into hyper if anyone comes after it.

It's only at 141 seconds of missile flight time, so it can't transition into hyper if 5000 missiles are unexpectedly launched its way. But the chance of that is pretty low.

How about putting a Ghost where you have the LD (because it can transition faster)? Then putting the LD out far enough, so it could make the transition.

There is also the trick that the SLN invasion fleet at Manticore used, which cuts the time to transition in half.

Yeah, Using a Ghost there would probably work; given 141 seconds to get out of there.

Based on the old infodump with the hyper generator in stand-by readiness, fully charged and just waiting for the 'go' button to be pressed it still takes a (presumably about 38,000 ton) dispatch boat 30 seconds to transition after the button is hit; while an 8 mton SD takes 4 minutes.

We don't have the actual equation for calculating seconds/ton - but two plausible fits would be linear or logarithmic. A Ghost is described as frigate sized, so let's assume it masses the 53,500 tons of a Gryf-class frigate (from SITS).
Linear fit of seconds/ton gives me 30.4 seconds from 'go' to transition.
Logarithmic fit of seconds/ton gives me 43.4 seconds.

So even if we assume logarithmic the crew would have a quite generous 97 seconds to see the missile launch, overcome their shock, and hit the 'go' button.

And if, as seems likely, it wasn't seen then it could stick around to act as the forward fire controller for the LD's missile. (And the good news about its fast cycle time is it can just leave the generator in standby; it doesn't need the trick of hitting the 'go' button early and just aborting the transition if not needed. Because IIRC the downside of that trick is it somewhat discharges the generator -- so after you abort the jump you now have an even longer vulnerable period where you can't hyper out. You've got to wait for the generator to build back up to standby before you get to your default transition delay)

tlb wrote:How about putting a Ghost where you have the LD (because it can transition faster)? Then putting the LD out far enough, so it could make the transition.

There is also the trick that the SLN invasion fleet at Manticore used, which cuts the time to transition in half.

At that point, just leave and go to the next target. No need to stick around, unless they think they may need more torpedoes.

I was going to say it should be a destroyer instead, but no, this may actually be something a Ghost is good for. It is a stealth scout.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:How about putting a Ghost where you have the LD (because it can transition faster)? Then putting the LD out far enough, so it could make the transition.

There is also the trick that the SLN invasion fleet at Manticore used, which cuts the time to transition in half.

At that point, just leave and go to the next target. No need to stick around, unless they think they may need more torpedoes.

I was going to say it should be a destroyer instead, but no, this may actually be something a Ghost is good for. It is a stealth scout.

Eventually you will come around. See?

Upstream, I assumed Ghosts will always be used because they should be the stealthiest ship because they are the smallest ship. So a Ghost somewhat has stealth by design. And if they are already with the convoy, they can be sacrificed for the greater good.

It's not exactly "coming around" to say that a ship explicitly designed as an unarmed stealth scout (and forward fire controller) should be used as, wait for it, an unarmed stealth scout (and forward fire controller).

I'm pretty sure that's what we've all been saying all along.

But that's not the same thing as trying to mount weapons to them to let them fight solo; nor it is routinely planning to put them in situations where they're very likely to die while trying to scout or provide fire control direction.