Honor Harrington's Aristocratic Style

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:A full background check on each student (Which I agree they'd do) is different that personally briefing the Queen on the details of those background checks (much less briefing a royal cadet on the full background of her roommate).

If there had been a security concern in general the applicant simply wouldn't have been admitted. If there was a concern about proximity to a royal heir then the room assignments would have been adjusted.
But in neither case would that require personally briefing the Monarch or the royal cadet.


However the Wintons go to pretty Signiant length to expose even the heir to regular people (after all they're required to marry one -- which kind of requires exposure) and Michelle in particular is touchy about anything smacking of nepotism. So I suspect that, outside of screening out some cadets ahead of time, they try to leave the rest of the academy experience (including roommate assignment) as similar as possible to that of every other cadet.

(Though they might specifically avoid giving a Winton a roommate from the nobility -- just screen all of them out beforehand)


So I chalk Honor and Michelle being roommates up more to the power of plot than to specific match matching by the Academy, Beth, or even the Royal Household or intelligence services.

How would they know if there is a security threat without initiating the vetting process? The rigorous screening process would uncover lots of information.

Students would be entitled to their privacy, I agree. For the most part and within reason. So no, Michelle would not have been informed of anything that the background checks would have discovered about Honor or of anything that Honor included on her application. Michelle would find out the old fashioned way as far as best friends go; she'd earn it, out of trust and loyalty. And in Honor’s case, necessity.

Text says that Honor's secret as a genie was kept a secret. It is still information not readily volunteered. The galaxy seems to be a bit prejudiced against genies. Even the Queen keeps the content of her genetic makeup under wraps.

This is something I don't quite understand. The King and Queen of Manticore are genies. Why would they need to keep it a secret that they are? They set policy. Surely nobody could disparage the King or Queen of Manticore for the content of their genetic makeup, color of their skin or religious affiliation.

But it IS what it IS, if the King / Queen of Manticore had to hide their genetic status. Certainly Honor needed to do so as well. In addition, Honor probably would not want to readily volunteer the fact that she is a Commoner. Manticoran society likes to gossip and say ugly things about Commoners. They gave King Roger's wife the nickname of “little beggar maid.”

Probably everyone in the forum has experienced University life. Dorms, cafeterias, exam week, social life, clubs, extracurricular activities, sports events, dating and the opposite sex. I don't see there being any way that Honor could have hidden certain things about herself, like her high metabolism for one. Especially during exam week. Studying burns lots of calories, and Honor would have been sucking food up like a Hoover vacuum cleaner. And if she'd spent any time in the cafeteria, she'd have caused a scene. A black hole gobbling up everything in its vicinity is noticeable. So, Honor probably had a lot of food stashed in her room. Snacks everywhere. And Michelle undoubtedly catered to that bottomless pit as well. There is no way Honor could have withheld certain information from a curious roommate who is always asking questions. Especially when she would have needed her help to steal food. Honor would not have wanted everyone to know she is a genie.

Then there is her athletic prowess. Did Honor participate in any sports?; where she undoubtedly would have excelled far above the rest.

Then there is Nimitz. Would all the other students have felt comfortable having an animal hanging out in the cafeteria? And if they liked Nimitz, why didn't Honor have friends? The plot thickens.

But I find it difficult to believe that the powers that be would not have seen fit to ensure that Michelle Henke was protected. Especially since the Royal family had a tradition of joining the Navy. And that means having a suitable roommate. I am going to hazard a guess that all of us have experienced the occasional roommate from Hell.

In summary, I simply cannot accept that Michelle’s time at the Academy was not “regulated” from afar. Her parents and Queen Elizabeth has a right to request the record of any student who would be in the sphere of "she who is fifth in line for secession." And they would have, lest they hate themselves later if something had happened. And Especially since the Havenites set a precedent for an assassination of a head of state.

And it wouldn't have had anything to do with meddling or nepotism. It would have to do with security and protocol.

So, it is difficult to swallow that Beth didn't know. Could it be that Beth simply has a mean poker face perhaps? Even if possibly with Monroe's help?


Ugly text version of site again.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:A full background check on each student (Which I agree they'd do) is different that personally briefing the Queen on the details of those background checks (much less briefing a royal cadet on the full background of her roommate).

If there had been a security concern in general the applicant simply wouldn't have been admitted. If there was a concern about proximity to a royal heir then the room assignments would have been adjusted.
But in neither case would that require personally briefing the Monarch or the royal cadet.


However the Wintons go to pretty Signiant length to expose even the heir to regular people (after all they're required to marry one -- which kind of requires exposure) and Michelle in particular is touchy about anything smacking of nepotism. So I suspect that, outside of screening out some cadets ahead of time, they try to leave the rest of the academy experience (including roommate assignment) as similar as possible to that of every other cadet.

(Though they might specifically avoid giving a Winton a roommate from the nobility -- just screen all of them out beforehand)


So I chalk Honor and Michelle being roommates up more to the power of plot than to specific match matching by the Academy, Beth, or even the Royal Household or intelligence services.

How would they know if there is a security threat without initiating the vetting process? The rigorous screening process would uncover lots of information.

Students would be entitled to their privacy, I agree. For the most part and within reason. So no, Michelle would not have been informed of anything that the background checks would have discovered about Honor or of anything that Honor included on her application. Michelle would find out the old fashioned way as far as best friends go; she'd earn it, out of trust and loyalty. And in Honor’s case, necessity.

Text says that Honor's secret as a genie was kept a secret. It is still information not readily volunteered. The galaxy seems to be a bit prejudiced against genies. Even the Queen keeps the content of her genetic makeup under wraps.

This is something I don't quite understand. The King and Queen of Manticore are genies. Why would they need to keep it a secret that they are? They set policy. Surely nobody could disparage the King or Queen of Manticore for the content of their genetic makeup, color of their skin or religious affiliation.

But it IS what it IS, if the King / Queen of Manticore had to hide their genetic status. Certainly Honor needed to do so as well. In addition, Honor probably would not want to readily volunteer the fact that she is a Commoner. Manticoran society likes to gossip and say ugly things about Commoners. They gave King Roger's wife the nickname of “little beggar maid.”

Probably everyone in the forum has experienced University life. Dorms, cafeterias, exam week, social life, clubs, extracurricular activities, sports events, dating and the opposite sex. I don't see there being any way that Honor could have hidden certain things about herself, like her high metabolism for one. Especially during exam week. Studying burns lots of calories, and Honor would have been sucking food up like a Hoover vacuum cleaner. And if she'd spent any time in the cafeteria, she'd have caused a scene. A black hole gobbling up everything in its vicinity is noticeable. So, Honor probably had a lot of food stashed in her room. Snacks everywhere. And Michelle undoubtedly catered to that bottomless pit as well. There is no way Honor could have withheld certain information from a curious roommate who is always asking questions. Especially when she would have needed her help to steal food. Honor would not have wanted everyone to know she is a genie.

Then there is her athletic prowess. Did Honor participate in any sports?; where she undoubtedly would have excelled far above the rest.

Then there is Nimitz. Would all the other students have felt comfortable having an animal hanging out in the cafeteria? And if they liked Nimitz, why didn't Honor have friends? The plot thickens.

But I find it difficult to believe that the powers that be would not have seen fit to ensure that Michelle Henke was protected. Especially since the Royal family had a tradition of joining the Navy. And that means having a suitable roommate. I am going to hazard a guess that all of us have experienced the occasional roommate from Hell.

In summary, I simply cannot accept that Michelle’s time at the Academy was not “regulated” from afar. Her parents and Queen Elizabeth has a right to request the record of any student who would be in the sphere of "she who is fifth in line for secession." And they would have, lest they hate themselves later if something had happened. And Especially since the Havenites set a precedent for an assassination of a head of state.

And it wouldn't have had anything to do with meddling or nepotism. It would have to do with security and protocol.

So, it is difficult to swallow that Beth didn't know. Could it be that Beth simply has a mean poker face perhaps? Even if possibly with Monroe's help?


Ugly text version of site again.

Jonathan_S wrote: agreed they'd do a full background check -- so I'm confused why your asking how they'd know about a security threat without avetting or screening process. They'd have one.
All I said is that they wouldn't be briefing the Queen on the details of each one of those investigations.

Beth's government security/intelligence services would know things about Honor, at the time she entered the Academy, that Beth herself would not.


But I don't know why you'd think Honor would want to hide her commoner status. The most cadets would be commoners; and Honor is proud of her Sphynxian Yeomanry background. Yes there were unkind things said about King Roger's wife - less because she was a commoner (after all, by law she had to be[1]) than because she was poor immigrant.

As for Honor's status as a "genie" - it's not something she freely shares with strangers or publicizes; but it's known to plenty of people. Certainly all her doctors know, and it'd be in her academy and later naval medical files. (And she inherited it from her father, and his details would also be in naval medical files) Her extra nutritional needs would also be recorded in such a way that they're accounted for in logistics and meal prep -- so not just in medical files; though those more widely visible files might not explicitly state why. And of course she shares that information with her friends.
She's not actively trying to hide how much she eats -- she just isn't making a big deal out of it. Same with her heavy grav roots. Quite a number of cadets would also have been from Sphynx and nearly all would be expected to be stronger than folks brought up on the other (lower gravity planets)

Treecats are well known - and as protected sentient being, if not ones necessarily frequently encountered. I'm sure they appear a fair bit in various media and shows; so I doubt there was much concern about Nimitz. Surprise as actually seeing a treecat in person; but not concern about one being there.

And Michelles safety would be important, but it would be balanced against the need for her to develop into a useful and effective naval officer (not the safest of professions). She wouldn't be kept in so much of a bubble that it would interfere with her developing into a good officer.

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[1] Technically the law is only that the (primary) heir can only marry a commoner. RFC explicitly clarified that people further down the line of succession can marry nobles; and remain married to them should some disaster lead to them becoming the primary heir or even the monarch. And neither does it seem that there's a law restricting who the monarch may marry (should they be, or become, single while on the throne)

penny wrote:We both agree they'd do background checks. After all, that is common practice even in a regular University. What we disagree on is that they would fail to utilize prefetched information in certain respects and leave important matters up to plot. Or worse, chance. When it comes to someone who is fifth in line for secession. Bolstering security is not nepotism.

We disagree that the two becoming roommates is simply a plot device. Robert Woodward has a very good point about a request by someone, perhaps Honor herself, regarding accommodations for a treecat.

That would probably be on the application anyway, since the Royal family has been heavily bonded and since they have a tradition of joining the Navy.

I simply cannot agree, however, that certain pre-fetched information would not be put to good use, behind the scenes. Even non military Universities do that when they allow two people a request to be roommates. Thus, supporting compatibility.

penny wrote:Text says that Honor's secret as a genie was kept a secret. It is still information not readily volunteered. The galaxy seems to be a bit prejudiced against genies. Even the Queen keeps the content of her genetic makeup under wraps.

This is something I don't quite understand. The King and Queen of Manticore are genies. Why would they need to keep it a secret that they are? They set policy. Surely nobody could disparage the King or Queen of Manticore for the content of their genetic makeup, color of their skin or religious affiliation.

But it IS what it IS, if the King / Queen of Manticore had to hide their genetic status.

penny wrote:There is no way Honor could have withheld certain information from a curious roommate who is always asking questions. Especially when she would have needed Michelle to help her steal food.

penny wrote:Text says that Honor's secret as a genie was kept a secret. It is still information not readily volunteered. The galaxy seems to be a bit prejudiced against genies. Even the Queen keeps the content of her genetic makeup under wraps.

markusschaber wrote:I think the fact that they're genetically enhanced is not kept secret in the strict sense - its nothing they're bragging about, but one can get the information when digging a little (as Dr. Alison Harrington did).

But the details of their modifications are kept secret - apart from privacy, also for security reasons (as every bit of information might help enemies).

Chapter 3 wrote:"Don't worry, My Lord. Mike Henke teases me about it all the time, and the explanation's simple enough. I'm a genie."

The earl blinked briefly, his expression totally blank, then nodded in sudden understanding. It was considered extremely impolite to use the term "genie" to describe someone, but given Harrington's neurosurgeon father and—especially—geneticist mother, she was probably more comfortable with the label than many. For that matter, the prejudice against genetically engineered humans was slowly dying out as the last memories of Old Earth's Final War faded from the racial forebrain. But there had been no such prejudice in the early days of the Diaspora, and quite a few colonies had been established by genies specifically designed for their new environments.

"I wasn't aware of that, Milady," he said after a moment.

"We don't talk about it much, but I'd guess the majority of Sphinxians are genies by now," she replied. He raised a polite eyebrow, and she shrugged. "Think about it," she suggested. "Heavy-grav planets are one of the most common 'hostile' environments. You know that even today most heavy-worlders have shorter than average life expectancies?" She looked at White Haven again, and he nodded. "That's because even with modern medicine you can't put a body designed for a single gravity onto a one-point-three or one-point-five-gravity planet and expect it to function properly. I, on the other hand—"

She made a graceful gesture with one hand, and he nodded slowly. "I knew about the modifications for Quelhollow, but those are much more readily apparent than what you seem to be talking about," he observed.

"Well, Quelhollow had some other environmental concerns, whereas my ancestors were more of a . . . generic design, I suppose. Basically, my muscle tissue is about twenty-five percent more efficient than a 'pure human's,' and there are a few changes to my respiratory and circulatory systems, plus some skeletal reinforcement. The idea was to fit us for heavy-grav planets generally, not one in particular, and the geneticists made the changes dominant, so that every parent would pass them on to every child."

"And your diet?"

"I don't get more efficient muscles and a stronger heart for free, My Lord," Honor said wryly. "My metabolism runs about twenty percent faster—a little more than that actually, but not much—to fuel the differences. Which is why I can afford to eat like this," she finished, grinning as MacGuiness put a third plate of waffles in front of her.

markusschaber wrote:

penny wrote:There is no way Honor could have withheld certain information from a curious roommate who is always asking questions. Especially when she would have needed Michelle to help her steal food.

Why stealing food?

It was at Travis Longs time that his fried didn't get enough food, due to a rule who had been changed within the same story, a few hundred years before Honors time. And he'd signed in as a spacer, only later got promoted as a Mustang, one might think that spacers have different rules than officers.

And her parents were surely wealthy enough and supporting her, so she could afford food for herself and Nimitz (while Travis Long had been without any support from his family).

penny wrote:There is no way Honor could have withheld certain information from a curious roommate who is always asking questions. Especially when she would have needed Michelle to help her steal food.

markusschaber wrote:Why stealing food?

It was at Travis Longs time that his fried didn't get enough food, due to a rule who had been changed within the same story, a few hundred years before Honors time. And he'd signed in as a spacer, only later got promoted as a Mustang, one might think that spacers have different rules than officers.

And her parents were surely wealthy enough and supporting her, so she could afford food for herself and Nimitz (while Travis Long had been without any support from his family).

penny wrote:Dorms are very strict when it comes to having a stove or an oven. That is a no no. Some dorms are allowed to have a microwave. But hot plates are out. Fire hazard. Some dorms are allowed to have refrigerators. Not all of them, but some. However, they are always limited to the small dorm sized refrigerators. Those things are not going to be able to store enough food for the likes of Honor. Honor has to eat several times a day. Some cafeterias will allow you to eat all you can eat. Some. Not all. Not many either. Some simply have one day a week where they will set up a buffet. But an all you can eat buffet, or a policy in general that you can eat all you can eat is not going to help Honor. She isn't like a camel who can store food for the next meal. Honor needs constant access to food. She won't be getting that in a University setting. And those small dorm fridges are only going to store so much. And some of that has to be shared with Michelle.

And it isn't about being able to afford to buy food off campus. University life can get very busy. Especially during exam week. Students don't have the time to constantly visit a restaurant or fast food place even if one is open at 2 AM when they are burning the night oil. Don't you remember your days at Uni? Studying for days? No time to even make it to the cafeteria? No bath for a week? Just studying, cramming, studying, cramming, studying. You frighten yourself when you look in the mirror.

But I don't know ANY college cafeteria that supports you taking food out. They simply cannot afford that.

I hear Academies are even stricter!

penny wrote:Dorms are very strict when it comes to having a stove or an oven. That is a no no. Some dorms are allowed to have a microwave. But hot plates are out. Fire hazard. Some dorms are allowed to have refrigerators. Not all of them, but some. However, they are always limited to the small dorm sized refrigerators. Those things are not going to be able to store enough food for the likes of Honor. Honor has to eat several times a day. Some cafeterias will allow you to eat all you can eat. Some. Not all. Not many either. Some simply have one day a week where they will set up a buffet. But an all you can eat buffet, or a policy in general that you can eat all you can eat is not going to help Honor. She isn't like a camel who can store food for the next meal. Honor needs constant access to food. She won't be getting that in a University setting. And those small dorm fridges are only going to store so much. And some of that has to be shared with Michelle.

And it isn't about being able to afford to buy food off campus. University life can get very busy. Especially during exam week. Students don't have the time to constantly visit a restaurant or fast food place even if one is open at 2 AM when they are burning the night oil. Don't you remember your days at Uni? Studying for days? No time to even make it to the cafeteria? No bath for a week? Just studying, cramming, studying, cramming, studying. You frighten yourself when you look in the mirror.

But I don't know ANY college cafeteria that supports you taking food out. They simply cannot afford that.

I hear Academies are even stricter!

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:There is no way Honor could have withheld certain information from a curious roommate who is always asking questions. Especially when she would have needed Michelle to help her steal food.

markusschaber wrote:Why stealing food?

It was at Travis Longs time that his fried didn't get enough food, due to a rule who had been changed within the same story, a few hundred years before Honors time. And he'd signed in as a spacer, only later got promoted as a Mustang, one might think that spacers have different rules than officers.

And her parents were surely wealthy enough and supporting her, so she could afford food for herself and Nimitz (while Travis Long had been without any support from his family).

penny wrote:Dorms are very strict when it comes to having a stove or an oven. That is a no no. Some dorms are allowed to have a microwave. But hot plates are out. Fire hazard. Some dorms are allowed to have refrigerators. Not all of them, but some. However, they are always limited to the small dorm sized refrigerators. Those things are not going to be able to store enough food for the likes of Honor. Honor has to eat several times a day. Some cafeterias will allow you to eat all you can eat. Some. Not all. Not many either. Some simply have one day a week where they will set up a buffet. But an all you can eat buffet, or a policy in general that you can eat all you can eat is not going to help Honor. She isn't like a camel who can store food for the next meal. Honor needs constant access to food. She won't be getting that in a University setting. And those small dorm fridges are only going to store so much. And some of that has to be shared with Michelle.

And it isn't about being able to afford to buy food off campus. University life can get very busy. Especially during exam week. Students don't have the time to constantly visit a restaurant or fast food place even if one is open at 2 AM when they are burning the night oil. Don't you remember your days at Uni? Studying for days? No time to even make it to the cafeteria? No bath for a week? Just studying, cramming, studying, cramming, studying. You frighten yourself when you look in the mirror.

But I don't know ANY college cafeteria that supports you taking food out. They simply cannot afford that.

I hear Academies are even stricter!

If you think Academies are strict, then you might consider how they feel about thieves.