Excusez-moi

penny wrote:Is there a possibility that the Wintons are a lost Alpha line as well?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:This one is a definitely NO.

The Wintons left Earth in 775 PD, several centuries before Leonard Detweiler was born on Beowulf.

It's possible they have had genetic updates since arriving in the MBS (I would say it's quite likely), by the time the MAlign would have taken any interest in Manticore - probably in Stephanie's time, we'll see more about that in a month and a half - they were already the Royals and too protected for the MAlign to do anything about. None of which would qualify as a MAlign line anyway.

Jonathan_S wrote:Certainly they didn't start as an Alpha line.

Though I guess it isn't utterly impossible that one of the commoners who married into the family over the centuries was, somehow, a lost Alpha.

How many lost Alpha lines are there?

One thing that I have tried to point out before was that the Alphas, Betas and Gammas were being incrementally improved over time. So as a new improvements is being released into the Alphas, then previous Alpha improvements are released into the Betas and previous Beta improvements are released into the Gammas; always maintaining the hierarchy which has the Detweilers at the very top. Even if this requires a many year cycle, then the lost lines are falling further behind with each cycle that passes (assuming that improvements are really being made).

So if the Harringtons or Wintons really involved a lost Alpha line from several centuries ago, then by LRPB logic they should NOT even be as good as a Gamma by now. I take this as a sign that the LRPB really does not know what it is doing.

tlb wrote:How many lost Alpha lines are there?

One thing that I have tried to point out before was that the Alphas, Betas and Gammas were being incrementally improved over time. So as a new improvements is being released into the Alphas, then previous Alpha improvements are released into the Betas and previous Beta improvements are released into the Gammas; always maintaining the hierarchy which has the Detweilers at the very top. Even if this requires a many year cycle, then the lost lines are falling further behind with each cycle that passes (assuming that improvements are really being made).

So if the Harringtons or Wintons really involved a lost Alpha line from several centuries ago, then by LRPB logic they should NOT even be as good as a Gamma by now. I take this as a sign that the LRPB really does not know what it is doing.

Probably depends on how you categorize it. (And yes the Alpha lines of a century ago are presumably significantly inferior to the Alpha lines of today -- at least in terms of whatever characteristics the LRPB has been focusing on)

I suspect it would be pretty rare for the MAlign to have lost touch with and entire family tree of Alphas. A lost Alpha seems to happen when either there's nobody to induct the subsequent generations into the Onion or those subsequent generations are deemed too much of a potential security risk to induct.

And note that there's a potential that a skipped individual's children might get inducted into the Onion by a grandparent, aunt, uncle, etc.. (Though I suspect that the "acceptance rate" would be lower since the parent, who wasn't in the know, wouldn't have been grooming their kid(s) for possible future induction and without that grooming it seems likely that they'd be judged less receptive and/or higher risk and so less likely that induction would be attempted)

One way you can get a lost branch of an Alpha line when you've got a skipped individual who cuts off or otherwise loses close contact with the rest of their Alpha extended family (such as by moving away). At that point the opportunity to evaluate and potentially induct that individual's descendants is lost. So the entire branch of the family tree originating with them is lost to the MAlign.

Another is simply that all the descendants are judged unworthy, or too risky, to induct until enough generations have passed that there's nobody left in contact with them who could evaluate and induct them.


But to lose an entire Alpha line family tree you'd need all the branches to be lost. And since there might be multiple branches of the same Alpha line family across multiple planets it seems reasonable unlikely that the MAlign would simultaneously lose all those branches.

So I'd say the number of entirely lost lines (if you're talking about the entire family tree) is very low. However the number of lost branches over the centuries is probably far higher; there might be hundreds or more of those. So how many lost Alpha lines there are would depend on whether you were talking of lost branches or entire lost trees

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:How many lost Alpha lines are there?

One thing that I have tried to point out before was that the Alphas, Betas and Gammas were being incrementally improved over time. So as a new improvements is being released into the Alphas, then previous Alpha improvements are released into the Betas and previous Beta improvements are released into the Gammas; always maintaining the hierarchy which has the Detweilers at the very top. Even if this requires a many year cycle, then the lost lines are falling further behind with each cycle that passes (assuming that improvements are really being made).

So if the Harringtons or Wintons really involved a lost Alpha line from several centuries ago, then by LRPB logic they should NOT even be as good as a Gamma by now. I take this as a sign that the LRPB really does not know what it is doing.

Probably depends on how you categorize it. (And yes the Alpha lines of a century ago are presumably significantly inferior to the Alpha lines of today -- at least in terms of whatever characteristics the LRPB has been focusing on)

I suspect it would be pretty rare for the MAlign to have lost touch with and entire family tree of Alphas. A lost Alpha seems to happen when either there's nobody to induct the subsequent generations into the Onion or those subsequent generations are deemed too much of a potential security risk to induct.

And note that there's a potential that a skipped individual's children might get inducted into the Onion by a grandparent, aunt, uncle, etc.. (Though I suspect that the "acceptance rate" would be lower since the parent, who wasn't in the know, wouldn't have been grooming their kid(s) for possible future induction and without that grooming it seems likely that they'd be judged less receptive and/or higher risk and so less likely that induction would be attempted)

One way you can get a lost branch of an Alpha line when you've got a skipped individual who cuts off or otherwise loses close contact with the rest of their Alpha extended family (such as by moving away). At that point the opportunity to evaluate and potentially induct that individual's descendants is lost. So the entire branch of the family tree originating with them is lost to the MAlign.

Another is simply that all the descendants are judged unworthy, or too risky, to induct until enough generations have passed that there's nobody left in contact with them who could evaluate and induct them.


But to lose an entire Alpha line family tree you'd need all the branches to be lost. And since there might be multiple branches of the same Alpha line family across multiple planets it seems reasonable unlikely that the MAlign would simultaneously lose all those branches.

So I'd say the number of entirely lost lines (if you're talking about the entire family tree) is very low. However the number of lost branches over the centuries is probably far higher; there might be hundreds or more of those. So how many lost Alpha lines there are would depend on whether you were talking of lost branches or entire lost trees

What keeps invading my mind is how the MA bribed some entity in keeping the location of their surveyed WH a secret. Makes me think the Wintons, pre Roger maybe, did the same with their genome. It seems odd that the Wintons are the only family with their particular genome. A lot would have had to happen for that to be true.

However, Jonathan, although I would generally agree it should be more difficult and unlikely to lose an entire line. I can think of one way. The MA could instead lose the plans for the genotype via bribery or theft. IOW, the research itself could have been lost before implemented. Like during the relocation to Mesa from Beowulf. In fact, some very specific research could have been a part of the deal to erase the knowledge of the WH leading to Darius. You scratch my back I'll scratch yours.

penny wrote:However, Jonathan, although I would generally agree it should be more difficult and unlikely to lose an entire line. I can think of one way. The MA could instead lose the plans for the genotype via bribery or theft. IOW, the research itself could have been lost before implemented. Like during the relocation to Mesa from Beowulf. In fact, some very specific research could have been a part of the deal to erase the knowledge of the WH leading to Darius. You scratch my back I'll scratch yours.

That seems to me more like losing the idea of, or plan for, a Line than an actual Line.

Failing to have ever tested out a concept for inclusion into an Alpha line certainly doesn't seem to be the kind of "lost" the books mean when they mention a lost Alpha line.



But yes, various things could have happened to prevent the MAlign testing out a proposed gene mod -- and if someone else ended up with the data then they might have tried that same mod outside of MAlign oversight and control. (For that matter, even with the wide variety of possible genetic mods, I'm sure that over the centuries there must have been multiple times when two researchers independently and simultaneously hit upon the same plan for a mod -- and some of those times one of the researches might have been MAlign)

The comments seem to be missing the point that the Manticore Royals have to marry a commoner. So none of the Egyptian Pharaoh incest, or even the European Royal families inter breeding.
Thus, even if the Wintons were genies their DNA would have been diluted over time.
Elizabeth's extra dark skin colour is a contradiction. As an old pop song said "coffee coloured people by the score - Blue Mink" in that you would expect a blending of genotypes, with humanity becoming homogenous to some extent.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:However, Jonathan, although I would generally agree it should be more difficult and unlikely to lose an entire line. I can think of one way. The MA could instead lose the plans for the genotype via bribery or theft. IOW, the research itself could have been lost before implemented. Like during the relocation to Mesa from Beowulf. In fact, some very specific research could have been a part of the deal to erase the knowledge of the WH leading to Darius. You scratch my back I'll scratch yours.

That seems to me more like losing the idea of, or plan for, a Line than an actual Line.

Failing to have ever tested out a concept for inclusion into an Alpha line certainly doesn't seem to be the kind of "lost" the books mean when they mention a lost Alpha line.



But yes, various things could have happened to prevent the MAlign testing out a proposed gene mod -- and if someone else ended up with the data then they might have tried that same mod outside of MAlign oversight and control. (For that matter, even with the wide variety of possible genetic mods, I'm sure that over the centuries there must have been multiple times when two researchers independently and simultaneously hit upon the same plan for a mod -- and some of those times one of the researches might have been MAlign)

Indeed it does.

I'll go ahead and agree – tentatively and with prejudice – that the MA seems to be suggesting a whole different meaning for lost. But we don't really know. How can we be certain of the particulars when particulars are not given. As a matter of fact, there are some of us who still refuse to accept the revelation that Honor is “lost,” indeed because of that same lack of particulars. So adopting a definite stance about how the MA’s research - in whatever stage or form that research is in (i.e., an adult in the form of Honor, a test tube baby, or simply completed research on a digital device) got lost is splitting the proverbial hair on the head of semantics.

In fact, you yourself stated upstream that there is most likely a lot of lost lines or mods. And I agree. But I don't think we should be so presumptuous about how any one of them had come to be lost.

Not to mention the sentiments of the owner who has lost the research, particularly if theft was the mechanism. I seriously doubt his disposition would be amenable to splitting hairs. And especially in this case if the line promised to be a very successful line/mod. Even today espionage continues to be the mechanism behind a lot of trade secrets being “lost.”

Daryl wrote:The comments seem to be missing the point that the Manticore Royals have to marry a commoner. So none of the Egyptian Pharaoh incest, or even the European Royal families inter breeding.
Thus, even if the Wintons were genies their DNA would have been diluted over time.
Elizabeth's extra dark skin colour is a contradiction. As an old pop song said "coffee coloured people by the score - Blue Mink" in that you would expect a blending of genotypes, with humanity becoming homogenous to some extent.

It won't change the "tone" of your post Daryl. But Michelle is the dark sheep of the family. Elizabeth's complexion is listed as Mahogany. Mahogany is more of a reddish brown.

Reddish brown hair is a blend of shades of reds and browns such as auburn, mahogany, burgundy, copper, and chestnut.

The combination of red and brown hues is endless. This multi-tonal color transcends the classic red and takes it to the next level for a more striking and rich blend that can brighten and freshen your look straightaway!

Red browns have a wide spectrum of colors, making it a super versatile shade that can complement all types of skin complexion. Shades that go browner than redder suit fairer skins, while those that are more on the red side of the spectrum go well on tan to dark skins.

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:How many lost Alpha lines are there?

One thing that I have tried to point out before was that the Alphas, Betas and Gammas were being incrementally improved over time. So as a new improvements is being released into the Alphas, then previous Alpha improvements are released into the Betas and previous Beta improvements are released into the Gammas; always maintaining the hierarchy which has the Detweilers at the very top. Even if this requires a many year cycle, then the lost lines are falling further behind with each cycle that passes (assuming that improvements are really being made).

So if the Harringtons or Wintons really involved a lost Alpha line from several centuries ago, then by LRPB logic they should NOT even be as good as a Gamma by now. I take this as a sign that the LRPB really does not know what it is doing.

Probably depends on how you categorize it. (And yes the Alpha lines of a century ago are presumably significantly inferior to the Alpha lines of today -- at least in terms of whatever characteristics the LRPB has been focusing on)

I suspect it would be pretty rare for the MAlign to have lost touch with and entire family tree of Alphas. A lost Alpha seems to happen when either there's nobody to induct the subsequent generations into the Onion or those subsequent generations are deemed too much of a potential security risk to induct.

And note that there's a potential that a skipped individual's children might get inducted into the Onion by a grandparent, aunt, uncle, etc.. (Though I suspect that the "acceptance rate" would be lower since the parent, who wasn't in the know, wouldn't have been grooming their kid(s) for possible future induction and without that grooming it seems likely that they'd be judged less receptive and/or higher risk and so less likely that induction would be attempted)

One way you can get a lost branch of an Alpha line when you've got a skipped individual who cuts off or otherwise loses close contact with the rest of their Alpha extended family (such as by moving away). At that point the opportunity to evaluate and potentially induct that individual's descendants is lost. So the entire branch of the family tree originating with them is lost to the MAlign.

Another is simply that all the descendants are judged unworthy, or too risky, to induct until enough generations have passed that there's nobody left in contact with them who could evaluate and induct them.


But to lose an entire Alpha line family tree you'd need all the branches to be lost. And since there might be multiple branches of the same Alpha line family across multiple planets it seems reasonable unlikely that the MAlign would simultaneously lose all those branches.

So I'd say the number of entirely lost lines (if you're talking about the entire family tree) is very low. However the number of lost branches over the centuries is probably far higher; there might be hundreds or more of those. So how many lost Alpha lines there are would depend on whether you were talking of lost branches or entire lost trees

I shall agree again, but again that agreement is tentative. In the same vein of your post, I think you are discounting the possibility of circumstances beyond an entire line's control that might force a mass migration. The galaxy was and still is a bit prejudiced when it comes to genies. Consider the circumstances of the mass migration of an entire race of Jews in Germany, let alone that of simply an extended family.


.

tlb wrote:While this is a nice quote, it comes dangerously close to being a spoiler for the next book - which is greatly discouraged.

Not sure if it answers the question about the Harringtons living on Sphinx, unless you are suggesting that the visiting Harrington was an Alpha line and so there was some confusion that caused the residents to be thought Alpha also.

However; if the book answers that, do NOT tell us here. Wait to discuss it after the book is out in the threads marked "SPOILER".

This is freely available in the sample for Friends Indeed on the Baen website (it is the Prologue) - the whole initial Duncan contact and the stuff about how Richard's branch moved while the decision to let that branch go had already been made before the move etc; it is also made clear that Duncan himself knows only about the "good" Alignment (and is an alpha line member) while his interlocutor, who is beta knows more (unsavory practices etc) though of course not how much more or anything specific. As for what happens on Sphinx, what role Duncan plays later and so on, well for that sure, read the book and I will only say that after book 1 which was very good, books 2-4 were mediocre and marked time to a large extent but now the storyline seems to get going for good and i am eager to read book 6 and see what happens next

tlb wrote:While this is a nice quote, it comes dangerously close to being a spoiler for the next book - which is greatly discouraged.

Not sure if it answers the question about the Harringtons living on Sphinx, unless you are suggesting that the visiting Harrington was an Alpha line and so there was some confusion that caused the residents to be thought Alpha also.

However; if the book answers that, do NOT tell us here. Wait to discuss it after the book is out in the threads marked "SPOILER".

cnrd22 wrote:This is freely available in the sample for Friends Indeed on the Baen website (it is the Prologue) - the whole initial Duncan contact and the stuff about how Richard's branch moved while the decision to let that branch go had already been made before the move etc; it is also made clear that Duncan himself knows only about the "good" Alignment (and is an alpha line member) while his interlocutor, who is beta knows more (unsavory practices etc) though of course not how much more or anything specific. As for what happens on Sphinx, what role Duncan plays later and so on, well for that sure, read the book and I will only say that after book 1 which was very good, books 2-4 were mediocre and marked time to a large extent but now the storyline seems to get going for good and i am eager to read book 6 and see what happens next

Now that you have pointed to a text source, I agree that it is freely available. But I will also caution that it can be considered a spoiler to those that wait for the entire book to be out. Even when the author says that something is going to happen and a person points out that occurs in the latest book (before its spoiler period has ended), that person can get in trouble for not abiding by the rules.