Excusez-moi

Jonathan_S wrote:But I got the impression that it usually wasn't just "the family member" who was in the know, one person picking one one successor. My impression was that the MAlign wanted as much of the family as could be trusted to be in the know to facilitate their long term missions (for those embedded in other societies) or to be available to work on MAlign projects (for those Alpha lines based on Mesa).

Probably much more than just one family, even. In the systems the MAlign has control of government for the RF, they probably had to insert several of them at least a century ago, possibly more. One holding on to power for so long could be deposed and it could be difficult to return to power afterwards. What's more, a single family becomes a focus of attention and investigation.

If you have many of them, each one seemingly independent from one another but secretly coordinating and rotating posts of influence, the population at wide would be none the wiser.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:And frankly, even if that wasn't true, within the Honorverse genetics (like physics) works exactly how the Author wants it to.

So, when discussing the books, we can treat it as a known and reliable mechanism -- even if it ultimately turns out you can't actually make any real-world version for humans.

Creating a mutation that will be passed upstream is totally different and a far cry from creating a mutation that won't be passed upstream. Which is what we are discussing.

Life finds a way to exist. Not desist.


By the same token Jonathan, the author is free to pen an exception at some point in the future. Otherwise I agree. I was simply labeling that pill as another large one, for me anyway, to swallow.

I didn't really dig into the books' descriptions of locked mods; but I don't recall any definitive statement that they'd prevent any mutation within the locked mod.

I thought I recalled the descriptions just being effectively:
a) The locked mod is dominant; so its genes will get copied into the final genome.
b) The locked mod is an atomic copy; you're guaranteed to get all of the genes comprising to it.

So you shouldn't get mutations caused by copying errors (especially from feralization), but I don't recall anything about it being immune to one-off mutations from, say, gamma rays hitting the DNA of an egg or sperm (or hitting the DNA of a person who has the mod).

In fact such one-off mutations in locked mods might be one of the things that geneticist like Honor's mom treat in their practices -- but that's just my speculation. On the other hand though I guess there's also room for RFC to say that whatever mechanism allows the "atomic' copying of the entire suite of genes that form the lock mod also includes some kind of more robust error detection mechanism and it'll simply abort copying if there is a mutation within the locked area. (though how that mechanism could itself be protected from one-off mutation is another question)

It's not something I recall the books getting deeply into; so I've no idea whether his tech bible has fleshed out all those details either.

Just a thought, but Grayson has the balance of the sexes genetic balance that persists.
As a side thought I know of four generations of friends in the UK where in the female line they can only bear girls. The males are miscarried early.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:But I got the impression that it usually wasn't just "the family member" who was in the know, one person picking one one successor. My impression was that the MAlign wanted as much of the family as could be trusted to be in the know to facilitate their long term missions (for those embedded in other societies) or to be available to work on MAlign projects (for those Alpha lines based on Mesa).

Probably much more than just one family, even. In the systems the MAlign has control of government for the RF, they probably had to insert several of them at least a century ago, possibly more. One holding on to power for so long could be deposed and it could be difficult to return to power afterwards. What's more, a single family becomes a focus of attention and investigation.

If you have many of them, each one seemingly independent from one another but secretly coordinating and rotating posts of influence, the population at wide would be none the wiser.

I can agree with that strategy. But do note that that strategy would be subject to the same problems as the succeeding first contacts. Amenability. A complete psychological profile would have to be performed on each family member before debriefing each member of classified secrets. Such psychological profiles have limitations. Consider that the same strict tactics have been carried out on all North Korean citizens and on all North Korean military personnel. Heck, North Korea is probably stricter than the Mesan Alignment. Yet many of the military personnel sent to Russia to fight in the Ukraine war immediately deserted. Life finds a way.

I just can't readily agree that any human being would be amenable to such "slavery". And expecting an oath of allegiance for such long periods of time to a shadow entity who has the MA's mission parameters is expecting too much of humans on a voluntary basis. Now, if the MA has some sort of gene mod that makes it impossible to refuse final indoctrination and first contact, then fine.

tlb wrote:I know when these concepts were first introduced in the books, there were biology students saying on this forum that it could NOT be done. But recently scientists have been able to do it with insects (create a mutation that will be passed to ALL progeny, whether from the father or the mother) and maybe in a couple thousand years it will possible with mammals (I hope there is a Beowulf Code by that time).

PS: The same process that works perfectly in insects, does not work perfectly in higher animals at present. But it does work at better than the normal genetic rate with them.

Jonathan_S wrote:And frankly, even if that wasn't true, within the Honorverse genetics (like physics) works exactly how the Author wants it to.

So, when discussing the books, we can treat it as a known and reliable mechanism -- even if it ultimately turns out you can't actually make any real-world version for humans.

penny wrote:Creating a mutation that will be passed upstream is totally different and a far cry from creating a mutation that won't be passed upstream. Which is what we are discussing.

Life finds a way to exist. Not desist.

When and where were we every discussing a mutation that will NOT be passed? And why isn't it downstream, from the parent (the source) to the child (the descendant); instead of upstream from the child to the parent?

We were talking about genies breeding true, with regard to the locked genes, while still having plenty of unlocked characteristics to express individuality.

You were talking about the occurrence of children with unexpected skin tones and I was trying to say that the child was just a result of an unknown genetic heritage being expressed, the same as having a child with red hair in a family of brown haired people. An artifact of the days when someone would be desperate to pass for white, for example. Or the way some children start out very blonde before turning brunette.

tlb wrote:

tlb wrote:I know when these concepts were first introduced in the books, there were biology students saying on this forum that it could NOT be done. But recently scientists have been able to do it with insects (create a mutation that will be passed to ALL progeny, whether from the father or the mother) and maybe in a couple thousand years it will possible with mammals (I hope there is a Beowulf Code by that time).

PS: The same process that works perfectly in insects, does not work perfectly in higher animals at present. But it does work at better than the normal genetic rate with them.

Jonathan_S wrote:And frankly, even if that wasn't true, within the Honorverse genetics (like physics) works exactly how the Author wants it to.

So, when discussing the books, we can treat it as a known and reliable mechanism -- even if it ultimately turns out you can't actually make any real-world version for humans.

penny wrote:Creating a mutation that will be passed upstream is totally different and a far cry from creating a mutation that won't be passed upstream. Which is what we are discussing.

Life finds a way to exist. Not desist.

When and where were we every discussing a mutation that will NOT be passed? And why isn't it downstream, from the parent (the source) to the child (the descendant); instead of upstream from the child to the parent?

We were talking about genies breeding true, with regard to the locked genes, while still having plenty of unlocked characteristics to express individuality.

You were talking about the occurrence of children with unexpected skin tones and I was trying to say that the child was just a result of an unknown genetic heritage being expressed, the same as having a child with red hair in a family of brown haired people. An artifact of the days when someone would be desperate to pass for white, for example. Or the way some children start out very blonde before turning brunette.

I am looking at it from the MA’s point of view. They pass things upstream (up the ladder) not downstream. Alphas would never consider themselves as being on the bottom or downstream from anyone. In fact, the Detweilers specifically describe gene modifications or enhancements passed to them as upstream. IINM, I first encountered that terminology when - Albrecht was it? - was toying with the idea of incorporating the Bardasano gene with his.

I clump mutations and locked genes in the same category. Anyway, I was responding to your inclusion of the bit about the scientists and the insects and running with it. Am I running too fast?

But yeah, the offspring would be downstream.

Actually, the MA probably considers their offspring as being upstream as well

penny wrote:I am looking at it from the MA’s point of view. They pass things upstream (up the ladder) not downstream. Alphas would never consider themselves as being on the bottom or downstream from anyone. In fact, the Detweilers specifically describe gene modifications or enhancements passed to them as upstream. IINM, I first encountered that terminology when - Albrecht was it? - was toying with the idea of incorporating the Bardasano gene with his.

I did a search on the word "upstream" in the stories through Mission of Honor and cannot find it used in the way you describe. In Storm from the Shadows, where I find mention of a cross between the Bardasano and Detweiler genotypes being evaluated, that word is not used:

Chapter 20 wrote:It amused Detweiler that those outside the Alignment's innermost circle often cherished doubts about Bardasano's sanity, particularly when it came to her attitude towards him. The fact that it was well known within Mesa's star lines that the Bardasanos had almost been culled meant that her apparent insouciance with him only added to her reputation for . . . oddness, and provided a valuable extra level of protection when he or one of his sons called upon her services. As he gazed at her across the desk, he toyed once more with the notion of telling her that a cross between the Bardasano and Detweiler genotypes was even then being evaluated, but decided against it. For now, at least.

It is not that you run too fast, but that you run off on tangents. Sometimes you write about what you think and at other times you write about what you believe characters in the book would think, without indicating a clear distinction between the two.

I stand by it.

penny wrote:I stand by it.

If you are referring to the use of the word "upstream"; it is questionable, because it suggests that things are being moved into the Alpha lines from below - meaning that a Beta or Gamma has an improvement before an Alpha does. I do not believe that is the way it works.

That is not really important.

What I am more curious about is this mention of "a far cry from creating a mutation that won't be passed upstream". Do you mean a mutation that would never be put into the Alpha line (which your particular use of the word "upstream" suggests) or are you talking about a mutation that will never be inherited. Note that prior to your post there was never a discussion of such a mutation in either sense, but we can expect that there are many mutations that would never be put into an Alpha line..