The Two General's Problem

penny wrote:You simply cannot be a reader, like book discussions, and lack imagination. Perhaps not as much imagination as an author has would be needed, but “some assembly” is required.

Albrecht Detweiler cloned his sons. As I understand, it is not widely known. I am not sure what circle of people are privy to the cloning, but it is not widely known. Anyway...

Let’s just say that I for one would not be surprised if Albrecht himself was a clone. Unbeknownst to even his sons. Perhaps unbeknownst even to the RF, because of certain Machiavellian reasons.

In fact, the Detweiler genome was one of the—if not the—most improved within the entire Alignment. And Albrecht Detweiler's "sons" were also his genetic clones. Bardasano, for one, he felt certain, had figured that out, despite how closely held a secret it was supposed to be. It was possible Kyprianou had, as well, given how closely he worked with Daniel. For that matter, Jerome Sandusky might cherish a few suspicions of his own, not that any of that trio was going to breathe a word of any such suspicions to anyone else.

But some of those "hedonistic sybarites" were anything but useless drones, and Bardasano was a prime example. In fact, she was the prime example. The Bardasano genotype had been notable for at least half a dozen generations for its intelligence and ruthless determination. There'd been a few unfortunate and unintended traits, as well, unhappily, and at one point there'd been serious consideration of simply culling the line's last several iterations and starting over again from a significantly earlier point. The positive traits had been so strong, however, that a remedial program had been instituted, instead, and Isabel was the current example of how successful it had been. It had been necessary to eliminate two of her immediate predecessors when their inherent ruthlessness had made them just a bit too ambitious for anyone else's good, but intelligent ambition, properly tempered, was always a useful thing, as Bardasano herself demonstrated. And if there was still a slight tendency towards sexual disorders and mildly sociopathic behaviors, neither of those posed any serious handicap, especially for someone whose area of expertise was covert operations. Of course, they'd have to be dealt with in the next generation or two if the Bardasano line was going to earn back permanent alpha status within the Alignment, which Isabel understood.

In the meantime, however, she was quite possibly the best covert ops specialist the Alignment had produced in at least the last T-century. It amused Detweiler that those outside the Alignment's innermost circle often cherished doubts about Bardasano's sanity, particularly when it came to her attitude towards him. The fact that it was well known within Mesa's star lines that the Bardasanos had almost been culled meant that her apparent insouciance with him only added to her reputation for . . . oddness, and provided a valuable extra level of protection when he or one of his sons called upon her services. As he gazed at her across the desk, he toyed once more with the notion of telling her that a cross between the Bardasano and Detweiler genotypes was even then being evaluated, but decided against it. For now, at least.

runsforcelery wrote:Since I’ve already wandered somewhat afield from the topic I originally set out to discuss, I should also point out that Albrecht Detweiler and his sons are not clones of Leonard Detweiler. They are, in effect, the current generation of the steadily improved Detweiler genotype. Remember we’re talking about a prolong society here, and the actual age difference between Albrecht and Benjamin isn’t very great for that sort of society. Nor are the offspring of the Detweiler “sons” genetic duplicates of their parents. Albrecht was cloned, frankly, because by all of the tests the Alignment could apply, he was going to be an incredibly capable generalist and leader and the Long-Range Planning Board decided that given how far into the endgame of the Alignment’s strategy they were, it made a great deal of sense to provide an entire cohort of equally capable leaders to whom Albrecht could delegate areas of responsibility.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:You simply cannot be a reader, like book discussions, and lack imagination. Perhaps not as much imagination as an author has would be needed, but “some assembly” is required.

Albrecht Detweiler cloned his sons. As I understand, it is not widely known. I am not sure what circle of people are privy to the cloning, but it is not widely known. Anyway...

Let’s just say that I for one would not be surprised if Albrecht himself was a clone. Unbeknownst to even his sons. Perhaps unbeknownst even to the RF, because of certain Machiavellian reasons.

I am not sure to whom this addressed, but I was under the impression that the top Alpha lines (if not all the Alpha lines) were more likely to be be lab grown than natural. Consider how the Long Range Planning Board had treated the Bardasano genome. Basically to maintain a strictly Detweiler or Bardasano genome pretty much requires that any offspring be the result of cloning.
From Storm from the Shadows, chapter 10:

In fact, the Detweiler genome was one of the—if not the—most improved within the entire Alignment. And Albrecht Detweiler's "sons" were also his genetic clones. Bardasano, for one, he felt certain, had figured that out, despite how closely held a secret it was supposed to be. It was possible Kyprianou had, as well, given how closely he worked with Daniel. For that matter, Jerome Sandusky might cherish a few suspicions of his own, not that any of that trio was going to breathe a word of any such suspicions to anyone else.

From chapter 20:

But some of those "hedonistic sybarites" were anything but useless drones, and Bardasano was a prime example. In fact, she was the prime example. The Bardasano genotype had been notable for at least half a dozen generations for its intelligence and ruthless determination. There'd been a few unfortunate and unintended traits, as well, unhappily, and at one point there'd been serious consideration of simply culling the line's last several iterations and starting over again from a significantly earlier point. The positive traits had been so strong, however, that a remedial program had been instituted, instead, and Isabel was the current example of how successful it had been. It had been necessary to eliminate two of her immediate predecessors when their inherent ruthlessness had made them just a bit too ambitious for anyone else's good, but intelligent ambition, properly tempered, was always a useful thing, as Bardasano herself demonstrated. And if there was still a slight tendency towards sexual disorders and mildly sociopathic behaviors, neither of those posed any serious handicap, especially for someone whose area of expertise was covert operations. Of course, they'd have to be dealt with in the next generation or two if the Bardasano line was going to earn back permanent alpha status within the Alignment, which Isabel understood.

In the meantime, however, she was quite possibly the best covert ops specialist the Alignment had produced in at least the last T-century. It amused Detweiler that those outside the Alignment's innermost circle often cherished doubts about Bardasano's sanity, particularly when it came to her attitude towards him. The fact that it was well known within Mesa's star lines that the Bardasanos had almost been culled meant that her apparent insouciance with him only added to her reputation for . . . oddness, and provided a valuable extra level of protection when he or one of his sons called upon her services. As he gazed at her across the desk, he toyed once more with the notion of telling her that a cross between the Bardasano and Detweiler genotypes was even then being evaluated, but decided against it. For now, at least.

Finally to put this to rest, we have a quote from the author:

runsforcelery wrote:Since I’ve already wandered somewhat afield from the topic I originally set out to discuss, I should also point out that Albrecht Detweiler and his sons are not clones of Leonard Detweiler. They are, in effect, the current generation of the steadily improved Detweiler genotype. Remember we’re talking about a prolong society here, and the actual age difference between Albrecht and Benjamin isn’t very great for that sort of society. Nor are the offspring of the Detweiler “sons” genetic duplicates of their parents. Albrecht was cloned, frankly, because by all of the tests the Alignment could apply, he was going to be an incredibly capable generalist and leader and the Long-Range Planning Board decided that given how far into the endgame of the Alignment’s strategy they were, it made a great deal of sense to provide an entire cohort of equally capable leaders to whom Albrecht could delegate areas of responsibility.

Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"

penny wrote:I was aware of the author's quote that you say 'puts rest to this.' Perhaps Leonard was not meant or supposed to be cloned. But to clone someone, one only needs a sample of their DNA. Perhaps someone long long ago knew that Leonard needed cloning. After all, it is "The Long Range Planning Board."

Simply a stroke of the pen... which is mightier than the sword.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:I was aware of the author's quote that you say 'puts rest to this.' Perhaps Leonard was not meant or supposed to be cloned. But to clone someone, one only needs a sample of their DNA. Perhaps someone long long ago knew that Leonard needed cloning. After all, it is "The Long Range Planning Board."

Simply a stroke of the pen... which is mightier than the sword.

But the current generations are not clones of Leonard in the purely technical sense that they sprang from genetic material that is greatly modified from what Leonard had been, that is the point RFC is making (I believe). The book is using "clone" in an everyday language way, but the author here is making a strict genetic point.

Dolly the sheep had identical DNA to to her donor. Albrecht's DNA is definitely NOT identical to Leonard's and the sons' DNA are likely NOT identical to Albrecht's (or each other). So there is a derivation, but not in the strict technical sense a cloning (although in casual speech we call it all cloning).

PS: It is clear that the Long Range Planning Board had all this information available for its consideration.

PPS: It is still not clear to me why you felt it was necessary to admonish the forum in that way.

penny wrote:You simply cannot be a reader, like book discussions, and lack imagination. Perhaps not as much imagination as an author has would be needed, but “some assembly” is required.

Albrecht Detweiler cloned his sons. As I understand, it is not widely known. I am not sure what circle of people are privy to the cloning, but it is not widely known. Anyway...

Let’s just say that I for one would not be surprised if Albrecht himself was a clone. Unbeknownst to even his sons. Perhaps unbeknownst even to the RF, because of certain Machiavellian reasons.

tlb wrote:I am not sure to whom this addressed, but I was under the impression that the top Alpha lines (if not all the Alpha lines) were more likely to be be lab grown than natural. Consider how the Long Range Planning Board had treated the Bardasano genome. Basically to maintain a strictly Detweiler or Bardasano genome pretty much requires that any offspring be the result of cloning.
From Storm from the Shadows, chapter 10:

In fact, the Detweiler genome was one of the—if not the—most improved within the entire Alignment. And Albrecht Detweiler's "sons" were also his genetic clones. Bardasano, for one, he felt certain, had figured that out, despite how closely held a secret it was supposed to be. It was possible Kyprianou had, as well, given how closely he worked with Daniel. For that matter, Jerome Sandusky might cherish a few suspicions of his own, not that any of that trio was going to breathe a word of any such suspicions to anyone else.

From chapter 20:

But some of those "hedonistic sybarites" were anything but useless drones, and Bardasano was a prime example. In fact, she was the prime example. The Bardasano genotype had been notable for at least half a dozen generations for its intelligence and ruthless determination. There'd been a few unfortunate and unintended traits, as well, unhappily, and at one point there'd been serious consideration of simply culling the line's last several iterations and starting over again from a significantly earlier point. The positive traits had been so strong, however, that a remedial program had been instituted, instead, and Isabel was the current example of how successful it had been. It had been necessary to eliminate two of her immediate predecessors when their inherent ruthlessness had made them just a bit too ambitious for anyone else's good, but intelligent ambition, properly tempered, was always a useful thing, as Bardasano herself demonstrated. And if there was still a slight tendency towards sexual disorders and mildly sociopathic behaviors, neither of those posed any serious handicap, especially for someone whose area of expertise was covert operations. Of course, they'd have to be dealt with in the next generation or two if the Bardasano line was going to earn back permanent alpha status within the Alignment, which Isabel understood.

In the meantime, however, she was quite possibly the best covert ops specialist the Alignment had produced in at least the last T-century. It amused Detweiler that those outside the Alignment's innermost circle often cherished doubts about Bardasano's sanity, particularly when it came to her attitude towards him. The fact that it was well known within Mesa's star lines that the Bardasanos had almost been culled meant that her apparent insouciance with him only added to her reputation for . . . oddness, and provided a valuable extra level of protection when he or one of his sons called upon her services. As he gazed at her across the desk, he toyed once more with the notion of telling her that a cross between the Bardasano and Detweiler genotypes was even then being evaluated, but decided against it. For now, at least.

Finally to put this to rest, we have a quote from the author:

runsforcelery wrote:Since I’ve already wandered somewhat afield from the topic I originally set out to discuss, I should also point out that Albrecht Detweiler and his sons are not clones of Leonard Detweiler. They are, in effect, the current generation of the steadily improved Detweiler genotype. Remember we’re talking about a prolong society here, and the actual age difference between Albrecht and Benjamin isn’t very great for that sort of society. Nor are the offspring of the Detweiler “sons” genetic duplicates of their parents. Albrecht was cloned, frankly, because by all of the tests the Alignment could apply, he was going to be an incredibly capable generalist and leader and the Long-Range Planning Board decided that given how far into the endgame of the Alignment’s strategy they were, it made a great deal of sense to provide an entire cohort of equally capable leaders to whom Albrecht could delegate areas of responsibility.

Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"

penny wrote:I was speaking to the entire forum with that post. That is why it is by itself.

I was aware of the author's quote that you say 'puts rest to this.' Perhaps Albrecht was not meant or supposed to be cloned. But to clone someone, one only needs a sample of their DNA. Perhaps someone long long ago knew that Albrecht needed cloning. After all, it is "The Long Range Planning Board."

Simply a stroke of the pen... which is mightier than the sword.

runsforcelery wrote:Albrecht was cloned, frankly, because by all of the tests the Alignment could apply, he was going to be an incredibly capable generalist and leader and the Long-Range Planning Board decided that given how far into the endgame of the Alignment’s strategy they were, it made a great deal of sense to provide an entire cohort of equally capable leaders to whom Albrecht could delegate areas of responsibility.

penny wrote:Oh my Shannon! That should have read 'perhaps someone long ago knew that Albrecht needed cloning'.

penny wrote:Let's try this again.

What if Albrecht has an identical twin, separated at birth maybe? Which would have been a good plan to have a backup copy of Albrecht. At what point was Albrecht cloned? He needed to survive for the plan.

Twins are a sort of clone as I stated upstream.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Let's try this again.

What if Albrecht has an identical twin, separated at birth maybe? Which would have been a good plan to have a backup copy of Albrecht. At what point was Albrecht cloned? He needed to survive for the plan.

Twins are a sort of clone as I stated upstream.

That is a much clearer presentation of your idea. Why do you find the "sons" insufficient as backup, given that they are the ones who have been actively working with Albrecht? When he and his wife were saying goodbye on the terrace, they talked about the boys and the grandchildren being on Darius and ready to carry on the work now that the baton has been passed. They do not talk about a twin before dying.

The author did surprise us with Galton, so your idea is not absolutely impossible. But why would there be no mention in TEiF, given that Albrecht was dead?

penny wrote:I seriously doubt Evelina would have known. I always got the impression that Albrecht's wife was sort of an "outsider" for lack of a better term.

Evelina Detweiler was one of the Mesan Alignment's top biosciences researchers, with a special expertise in bioweapons, working closely with Benjamin's brother Everett and Renzo Kyprianou. And unlike her husband, who was always sharply focused on the task in hand, Evelina was all too often the epitome of the "absent minded professor."