The Two General's Problem

penny wrote:Everybody was discussing how Albrecht didn’t need to die because he could have gotten out sooner, or could have attempted to get out somehow later on after the smoke cleared. Even his sons couldn’t understand why he remained behind so long.

But Albrecht wasn’t stupid. Obviously there is a reason he remained on Mesa so long without getting out. And it is for that reason that I condition myself for the fact that the author may have a surprise in store for us. Albrecht definitely procrastinated getting out for a reason. He also could have sent his wife on ahead of himself but also didn’t do that either. So, something Machiavellian?

Just offering up another perspective other than 'the Alpha wasn't so smart'.

None of the reasons why he decided to stay behind and decided to kill himself and Evelina imply he was stupid. Hindsight is 20/20 and he hadn't counted on Tenth and Second Fleets arriving as quickly as they did. No one knew Henke and Tourville would set off from Meyers directly to Mesa - not even them, TBF. The moment that the fleets translated from hyperspace, his menu of options closed considerably.

He could still get away, though that would not be without risk. That's what we're arguing: there were ways to go. He could not remain on that island: it had been kept off the Mesan books by the MAlign's interference, which would not hold when several dozen superdreadnoughts held orbit over the planet. He would have to leave it and merge with the general (elite) populace. And I imagine he had a fake identity or three that would stand to scrutiny at least long enough to get away from the planet.

He chose to die. That's not stupidity. In fact, it's a remarkable act of self-awareness that he knew he wasn't indispensable to the cause and that it would be continued by his sons. Actually, Benjamin's thought process in the beginning of TEiF when he's considering how badly they've veered off the Plan is a good indication the Detweilers, for all the arrogance they have and echo chamber they live in, have sufficient rational thought to know when they're (sometimes) wrong.

Then there's the out-of-universe aspect: bringing Albrecht back does not buy us anything into the story. We don't need an Albrecht 2 if we have Benjamin through Gervais - it's the Detweilers that are the problem, not Albrecht Detweiler himself. In fact, Colin heading the intelligence apparatus and Daniel heading the tech are the two that worry me more than Albrecht or Benjamin. And bringing back an old villain who somehow escaped death, and is now even more ruthless or evil, is not usually good writing. It doesn't match with RFC's style either. This is usually done when a chapter of a series closes off and the author needs to up the stakes again for a new sub-series; since RFC planned the Honorverse ahead of time, it's unlikely he will need to resort to this.

The fact that we haven't heard of any of this in storyline us beside the point and completely silly. Why would an author serve wine before its time. Several of us feel that there is another hideout other than Darius. That hasn't been mentioned either.

That's what I'd do if I were them. But this other hideout is probably nowhere as developed as Darius or Galton were, given the finite supply of resources. They could probably only afford a few colony ships sent hundreds of light-years away, not more. So even if it exists, it's not going to be a factor in the book series before the end. Besides, it would be another "evil villain comes back from the dead" trope.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:He could also have sent his wife on ahead of himself but also didn’t do that either.

Not wishing to be argumentative, but that was discussed when they were saying goodbye and she insisted that she would never leave him.


I wonder if they sent their bodyguards away?

I don't think it is being argumentative per se.

One makes decisions for their family. The father is the head of the household. On Grayson what the father says goes. On Masada what the father says goes. There is probably no other place in the galaxy that that is true moreso than on Grayson and Masada. OTHER than in the MAlignment. Evelina would have had to go if Albrecht insisted. He knew the danger, he could have insisted. Unless he knew something she didn’t, etc., etc.

Because it could have been part of The Plan for them both to die, or for one to die because of a faked death. Or there could have been a double faked death.

How would the series benefit from bringing Albrecht back from the dead? Well, technically it wasn’t a death if it was faked and part of The Plan all along. But.

Let’s say there is another hideout other than Darius. Who would be privy to it? The entire Onion?; Inner and Outer Onion? The Alignment must survive. That is The Plan. Albrecht Detweiler represents The Plan. He is the figurehead. And Albrecht has left the handling of The Plan to his sons. But if Darius is compromised aand attacked then there needs to be another cutout. Cutouts work great when people think they are telling the truth. Especially with treecats in existence. There is no way to force classified information out of people who are not privy to classified information.

Albrecht might now be tending to business at the final hideout.

Or, as I see ThinksMarkedly has posted, he and Evelina just got caught with their pants down.

Albrecht might have had several identities that would have passed scrutiny but Evelina might not have.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Everybody was discussing how Albrecht didn’t need to die because he could have gotten out sooner, or could have attempted to get out somehow later on after the smoke cleared. Even his sons couldn’t understand why he remained behind so long.

But Albrecht wasn’t stupid. Obviously there is a reason he remained on Mesa so long without getting out. And it is for that reason that I condition myself for the fact that the author may have a surprise in store for us. Albrecht definitely procrastinated getting out for a reason. He also could have sent his wife on ahead of himself but also didn’t do that either. So, something Machiavellian?

Just offering up another perspective other than 'the Alpha wasn't so smart'.

None of the reasons why he decided to stay behind and decided to kill himself and Evelina imply he was stupid. Hindsight is 20/20 and he hadn't counted on Tenth and Second Fleets arriving as quickly as they did. No one knew Henke and Tourville would set off from Meyers directly to Mesa - not even them, TBF. The moment that the fleets translated from hyperspace, his menu of options closed considerably.

He could still get away, though that would not be without risk. That's what we're arguing: there were ways to go. He could not remain on that island: it had been kept off the Mesan books by the MAlign's interference, which would not hold when several dozen superdreadnoughts held orbit over the planet. He would have to leave it and merge with the general (elite) populace. And I imagine he had a fake identity or three that would stand to scrutiny at least long enough to get away from the planet.

He chose to die. That's not stupidity. In fact, it's a remarkable act of self-awareness that he knew he wasn't indispensable to the cause and that it would be continued by his sons. Actually, Benjamin's thought process in the beginning of TEiF when he's considering how badly they've veered off the Plan is a good indication the Detweilers, for all the arrogance they have and echo chamber they live in, have sufficient rational thought to know when they're (sometimes) wrong.

Then there's the out-of-universe aspect: bringing Albrecht back does not buy us anything into the story. We don't need an Albrecht 2 if we have Benjamin through Gervais - it's the Detweilers that are the problem, not Albrecht Detweiler himself. In fact, Colin heading the intelligence apparatus and Daniel heading the tech are the two that worry me more than Albrecht or Benjamin. And bringing back an old villain who somehow escaped death, and is now even more ruthless or evil, is not usually good writing. It doesn't match with RFC's style either. This is usually done when a chapter of a series closes off and the author needs to up the stakes again for a new sub-series; since RFC planned the Honorverse ahead of time, it's unlikely he will need to resort to this.

The fact that we haven't heard of any of this in storyline us beside the point and completely silly. Why would an author serve wine before its time. Several of us feel that there is another hideout other than Darius. That hasn't been mentioned either.

That's what I'd do if I were them. But this other hideout is probably nowhere as developed as Darius or Galton were, given the finite supply of resources. They could probably only afford a few colony ships sent hundreds of light-years away, not more. So even if it exists, it's not going to be a factor in the book series before the end. Besides, it would be another "evil villain comes back from the dead" trope.

Or it could be more developed and more classified since you personally lead the protest that Darius is a beautiful planet that can't possibly be the source of their unprecedented technology. This other hideout might be up to its gills in tech. The evacuees might even have been diverted there.

If you fail to plan you plan to fail.

penny wrote:One makes decisions for their family. The father is the head of the household. On Grayson what the father says goes. On Masada what the father says goes. There is probably no other place in the galaxy that that is true more so than on Grayson and Masada. OTHER than in the MAlignment. Evelina would have had to go if Albrecht insisted. He knew the danger, he could have insisted.

I think the ONLY place where that is unquestionably true is Masada, since women there are property. As for the rest, what evidence do you have? Grayson was revealed to be much more nuanced. Can you find ANY text where Albrecht ordered her around? In their goodbyes he regrets not being able to order her to go away.

PS: I did wait to post this.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:One makes decisions for their family. The father is the head of the household. On Grayson what the father says goes. On Masada what the father says goes. There is probably no other place in the galaxy that that is true more so than on Grayson and Masada. OTHER than in the MAlignment. Evelina would have had to go if Albrecht insisted. He knew the danger, he could have insisted.

I think the ONLY place where that is unquestionably true is Masada, since women there are property. As for the rest, what evidence do you have? Grayson was revealed to be much more nuanced. Can you find ANY text where Albrecht ordered her around? In their goodbyes he regrets not being able to order her to go away.

PS: I did wait to post this.

Some things you learn by reading between the lines. The Alignment does not tolerate non compliance and disobedience. They are probably more dangerous to such individuals than Masada! On Masada disobedience might get you flogged in the street. In the Alignment disobedience will get you disappeared and perhaps your entire line culled.

Please! Albrecht was the “Head of the Onion.” And he had a plan to follow.

penny wrote:One makes decisions for their family. The father is the head of the household. On Grayson what the father says goes. On Masada what the father says goes. There is probably no other place in the galaxy that that is true more so than on Grayson and Masada. OTHER than in the MAlignment. Evelina would have had to go if Albrecht insisted. He knew the danger, he could have insisted.

tlb wrote:I think the ONLY place where that is unquestionably true is Masada, since women there are property. As for the rest, what evidence do you have? Grayson was revealed to be much more nuanced. Can you find ANY text where Albrecht ordered her around? In their goodbyes he regrets not being able to order her to go away.

penny wrote:Some things you learn by reading between the lines. The Alignment does not tolerate non compliance and disobedience. They are probably more dangerous to such individuals than Masada! On Masada disobedience might get you flogged in the street. In the Alignment disobedience will get you disappeared and perhaps your entire line culled.

Please! Albrecht was the “Head of the Onion.” And he had a plan to follow.

And some things you make up to fit your preferred story line. Bottom line is NO evidence and ignoring the dialogue created by the author.

penny wrote:Albrecht might have had several identities that would have passed scrutiny but Evelina might not have.

I doubt that the identities for her would be any less secure than for him. They may have wanted to travel together.

And if the risk of her being exposed was much less, then that means she could have got away too.

penny wrote:Or it could be more developed and more classified since you personally lead the protest that Darius is a beautiful planet that can't possibly be the source of their unprecedented technology. This other hideout might be up to its gills in tech. The evacuees might even have been diverted there.

If you fail to plan you plan to fail.

Agreed. Which is why I think they may have sent a last-ditch colonial expedition out, but that would mean this is a) not in a position to be a threat in the near or medium-term, and effectively b) not relevant to the story. If such a thing existed, Albrecht was probably aware but I would expect Benjamin to be too.

Sending Albrecht to lead it after the fact has a non-zero chance of coming to pass, but I think it's also virtually indistinguishable from zero. He'd arrive to take over several decades after other people have been leading the effort and effectively disconnected from the main MAlign central power. Those may resent him.

Which a reason not to send a colonial expedition like that. The distance involved means you can't exert effective control, which means they may in turn come to challenge you.

A closer colony I find too unlikely. They already had two within reasonable travel distance; a third does not buy more protection but does increase the chance of accidental discovery. It's too much a strain in their economic resources, which must be kept hidden. And, of course, it's too unbelievable for the storyline.

penny wrote:Albrecht might have had several identities that would have passed scrutiny but Evelina might not have.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I doubt that the identities for her would be any less secure than for him. They may have wanted to travel together.

And if the risk of her being exposed was much less, then that means she could have got away too.

We know when Albrecht went to Darius to congratulate the crews that carried out Oyster Bay, that Evalina traveled with him in the private streak-drive yacht.

The two of then could have been in that yacht outside the hyper-limit waiting for the final Houdini departure, when Henke's fleet arrived. The button could have been pressed from there as they watched, just as Aldona Anisimovna watched at New Tuscany.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Or it could be more developed and more classified since you personally lead the protest that Darius is a beautiful planet that can't possibly be the source of their unprecedented technology. This other hideout might be up to its gills in tech. The evacuees might even have been diverted there.

If you fail to plan you plan to fail.

Agreed. Which is why I think they may have sent a last-ditch colonial expedition out, but that would mean this is a) not in a position to be a threat in the near or medium-term, and effectively b) not relevant to the story. If such a thing existed, Albrecht was probably aware but I would expect Benjamin to be too.

Sending Albrecht to lead it after the fact has a non-zero chance of coming to pass, but I think it's also virtually indistinguishable from zero. He'd arrive to take over several decades after other people have been leading the effort and effectively disconnected from the main MAlign central power. Those may resent him.

Which a reason not to send a colonial expedition like that. The distance involved means you can't exert effective control, which means they may in turn come to challenge you.

A closer colony I find too unlikely. They already had two within reasonable travel distance; a third does not buy more protection but does increase the chance of accidental discovery. It's too much a strain in their economic resources, which must be kept hidden. And, of course, it's too unbelievable for the storyline.

Another possibility is that there could be another WH or terminus associated with it and/or a fast interstate hwy all the way there. Via the Streak Drive, and Albrecht could have been visiting it all along in secrecy.

Why would it be unbelievable? Several posters, myself included, already believe that there is another hideout. I simply have never agreed to a system with a limited population by a species that can grow people "on an assembly line." That is simply the mileage I get.

The common objections to such a huge population I've come across is that a huge population of lab grown citizens would pose a logistical problem of how to train them. Which puzzles me in the case of the MAlign. Computers can train. These are already citizens who are accustomed to a lack of intimacy being birthed in the lab and not the womb. I do not see, cannot see, training and education as a problem for the MA at all. On the contrary.