?

penny wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:As others have said: range.

As a beam weapon, as per the HV rules, the firing must happen within a million km of the target, probably must less to be effective.

I am not sure if that is true of a 3-second firing weapon in and of itself. It might be more effective at a longer range having much more time on target. Plus, how do we know that a scaled-up graser won’t be more powerful than standard energy weapons?

Even if it somehow has a longer range you'd still need to explain how it'd overcome the lightspeed lag inherent in the targeting loop when using an line of sight lightspeed weapons at something several lightseconds away.

penny wrote:Question. When a ship or fleet is decelerating, does it have the same sensor ability when flipped?

Generally yes -- the fore and the aft hammerheads have mirror image sensor suites. So a ship can see just as well in 'reverse' as 'forward'.

(That maybe slightly compromised for podlayers since their hammerheads aren't symmetrical. However, since you're more likely to engage while decelerating than accelerating if you were going to have one hammerhead with better sensors you'd be best off putting the better ones on the stern. So I'm sure, despite needing to make room for the large pod doors, the designers figured out how to mount just as good a sensor suite as they carry on their bows)

Now one thing that affects a single ship is that your clear field of view in narrower (vertically) looking aft because of the way the wedge planes tilt (and even your own sensors are less effective when looking through your wedge). Your lateral field of view is the same - because the wedge never interferes with that; but looking forward your vertical field of view is about +/- 64° from dead level while looking after it's only about +/- 15°. (That's the same wedge tilt geometry that leads to a down the throat shot being easier to pull off than an up the kilt one; the taller forward opening leaves more unobstructed there are more angles a shot can land from)

However there are a couple of ways to largely mitigate that shorter after field of view - rotate the ship, porpoise to sweep the opening up and down, rely more on RDs; or if you're in a fleet just coordinate ships movements to get a wider view by reducing sensor overlap between ships.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:As others have said: range.

As a beam weapon, as per the HV rules, the firing must happen within a million km of the target, probably must less to be effective.

penny wrote:I am not sure if that is true of a 3-second firing weapon in and of itself. It might be more effective at a longer range having much more time on target. Plus, how do we know that a scaled-up graser won’t be more powerful than standard energy weapons?

Jonathan_S wrote:Even if it somehow has a longer range you’d still need to explain how it’d overcome the lightspeed lag inherent in the targeting loop when using an line of sight lightspeed weapons at something several lightseconds away.

Now that’s a thought. An FTL targeting system! Brain food for Alphas? In the form of a superior computer; the Behemoth? Their very own RDs sprinting FTL targeting coordinates? Or some totally unprecedented innovation. And if the MAN is somehow able to tag certain ships with FTL beacons then the fat lady may certainly sing in real time.

At any rate, being effective at 1M – 2M kms might be enough if the fleet’s sensors are generally scanning for objects out to 1M kms. Twice the normal range adds an insignificant amount of light speed lag.

penny wrote:Question. When a ship or fleet is decelerating, does it have the same sensor ability when flipped?

Jonathan_S wrote:Generally yes – the fore and the aft hammerheads have mirror image sensor suites. So a ship can see just as well in ‘reverse’ as ‘forward’.

(That maybe slightly compromised for podlayers since their hammerheads aren’t symmetrical. However, since you’re more likely to engage while decelerating than accelerating if you were going to have one hammerhead with better sensors you’d be best off putting the better ones on the stern. So I’m sure, despite needing to make room for the large pod doors, the designers figured out how to mount just as good a sensor suite as they carry on their bows)

Now one thing that affects a single ship is that your clear field of view in narrower (vertically) looking aft because of the way the wedge planes tilt (and even your own sensors are less effective when looking through your wedge). Your lateral field of view is the same – because the wedge never interferes with that; but looking forward your vertical field of view is about +/- 64° from dead level while looking after it’s only about +/- 15°. (That’s the same wedge tilt geometry that leads to a down the throat shot being easier to pull off than an up the kilt one; the taller forward opening leaves more unobstructed there are more angles a shot can land from)

However there are a couple of ways to largely mitigate that shorter after field of view – rotate the ship, porpoise to sweep the opening up and down, rely more on RDs; or if you’re in a fleet just coordinate ships movements to get a wider view by reducing sensor overlap between ships.

I was mostly concerned with seeing through the wedge when flipped; which is hampered. It would also seem that smaller units like screening elements would have an even harder time seeing when flipped, having less real estate in which to mount sensors.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Even if it somehow has a longer range you’d still need to explain how it’d overcome the lightspeed lag inherent in the targeting loop when using an line of sight lightspeed weapons at something several lightseconds away.

Now that’s a thought. An FTL targeting system! Brain food for Alphas? In the form of a superior computer; the Behemoth? Their very own RDs sprinting FTL targeting coordinates? Or some totally unprecedented innovation. And if the MAN is somehow able to tag certain ships with FTL beacons then the fat lady may certainly sing in real time.

sure -- it's a thought if you missed the part where I explained why an FTL targeting system wasn't sufficient at those ranges.

Even if your graser targeting is FTL the graser itself isn't.

And since it takes the graser 3.33 seconds to cover a million km...

Even if you know exactly where the target ship is now (rather than where it was 3.33 seconds ago) by the time your graser covers a million km any Honorverse warship (other than a spider powered one) can divert from its projected course by at least 22km. And since even the largest Honorverse ship is barely a km long being able to change their projected location by more than that during the flight time of the graser beam means even with FTL targeting a ship can easily generate a miss from your graser.

Getting a hit at that kind of range requires:
1) The ship to be dead stupid and hold an utterly unvarying course; without even the normal automated position 'shifting' within its wedge (specifically done as a routine automated measure to avoid long range unguided fire). OR
2) Cracking the algorithms behind that automated mechanism so you can actually predict where (in the absence of new helm orders) the ship will be when the graser finally reaches it. OR
3) A lot of luck. (Though firing many beams at the same ship means you need less luck, since only one needs to hit, but still a fair amount)

Jonathan_S wrote:Even if it somehow has a longer range you’d still need to explain how it’d overcome the lightspeed lag inherent in the targeting loop when using an line of sight lightspeed weapons at something several lightseconds away.

penny wrote:Now that’s a thought. An FTL targeting system! Brain food for Alphas? In the form of a superior computer; the Behemoth? Their very own RDs sprinting FTL targeting coordinates? Or some totally unprecedented innovation. And if the MAN is somehow able to tag certain ships with FTL beacons then the fat lady may certainly sing in real time.

Jonathan_S wrote:sure -- it's a thought if you missed the part where I explained why an FTL targeting system wasn't sufficient at those ranges.

Even if your graser targeting is FTL the graser itself isn't.

And since it takes the graser 3.33 seconds to cover a million km...

Even if you know exactly where the target ship is now (rather than where it was 3.33 seconds ago) by the time your graser covers a million km any Honorverse warship (other than a spider powered one) can divert from its projected course by at least 22km. And since even the largest Honorverse ship is barely a km long being able to change their projected location by more than that during the flight time of the graser beam means even with FTL targeting a ship can easily generate a miss from your graser.

Getting a hit at that kind of range requires:
1) The ship to be dead stupid and hold an utterly unvarying course; without even the normal automated position 'shifting' within its wedge (specifically done as a routine automated measure to avoid long range unguided fire). OR
2) Cracking the algorithms behind that automated mechanism so you can actually predict where (in the absence of new helm orders) the ship will be when the graser finally reaches it. OR
3) A lot of luck. (Though firing many beams at the same ship means you need less luck, since only one needs to hit, but still a fair amount)

An FTL targeting system already exists because the gravitic sensor array gives direction and distance. But that is to the wedge, not the ship. Knowing where the wedge is, does not say if there is a buckler nor where the ship is within the wedge (your point #1). However there is a problem that positional certainty is related to array size; the enormous array for a planetary system has much more accuracy than any array mounted on a ship or platform.

penny wrote:I am not sure if that is true of a 3-second firing weapon in and of itself. It might be more effective at a longer range having much more time on target. Plus, how do we know that a scaled-up graser won’t be more powerful than standard energy weapons?

I expect the 3-second graser would put out more energy than regular grasers, but not more power. We're told they were less powerful than the BC-grade grasers the Shrikes have.

With the light-speed lag, this puts a crimp on their effectiveness against sidewalls: if the target is evading, then the energy will not be delivered to the same spot and may thus not overload the generators. Even if it does, then the chance that the beam then hits the ship is pretty low. At a 1-million-km range, the 3-second graser has expended itself completely before the first photons have hit the target.

I disagree. Stealthy orbital platforms can be released from orbit to meet a fleet attempting a zero/zero intercept. Forget about drones. If these things are in orbit then obviously the enemy still retains enough firepower to eat drones. And if the platforms are engineered to allow shorter firing times without slagging, then drones will be toast. Drones will have to slow down considerably to detect this stealth.

Ok, so not a orbital platform like I was thinking. Instead, a shoal of torpedoes pre-deployed and that advance on the arriving fleet for a simultaneous zero-zero (or near so, they don't need to be at zero distance and zero relative velocity). That way, the weapons are not in orbit when the fleet arrives but instead are behind it, where it may not be expecting a threat from.

Additionally, orbital sensors will be expected around the planet, so finding some making FTL transmissions would not raise any alarm. That could allow the Darius defences to transmit targetting instructions to those torpedoes.

Unfortunately, the best attack profile is not possible, because the torpedoes would be firing towards the planet. To avoid this danger, they can't wait for orbital insertion but must fire from a slightly stand-off range, which degrades the sensor capabilities of those orbital sensors. And since they must fire at an angle, they can't make down-the-throat shots but instead must fire on sidewalls. That's true even if they are crossing-the-T like Honor did in the Cerberus system, because those are 3-second grasers and the throat opening would be too short for whatever lateral velocity the weapons still had.

Again. Sensors must be directed at the correct location to be effective against stealthed objects even at the GA’s level of stealth. We all should agree by now that the MAN’s stealth is a cut above. It is crazy to assume these things will be detected when the enemy will ensure the fleet is preoccupied with other details.

I was thinking of orbital platforms, which means "within 30,000 km of the planet." In that case, yes, every sensor would be directed at them and stealth would not hold.

The scenario where the weapons are not in orbit but simultaneously arriving is different.

Question. When a ship or fleet is decelerating, does it have the same sensor ability when flipped?

I would say "completely undegraded" because it would be relying on drones and on Keyholes. Even in Travis' time, the only moment when they're degraded is at turn-over, and that's assuming a pitch manoeuvre which interposes the wedge, instead of a yaw rotation.

There could be a million times more sensors than usual and still not only miss the needle in the haystack but the haystack as well if all of the sensors are pointed in the wrong directions.

It might be premature to assume the smart cloth on such a platform won’t counteract occluding the planet.

Law of averages: the stealth must hold every time, for every platform, during the full time it's being scanned. The incoming fleet only needs to get lucky once, a "huh, that's funny" moment, to see that everything is not as it seems, and halt outside of effective range.

Jonathan_S wrote:Even if it somehow has a longer range you’d still need to explain how it’d overcome the lightspeed lag inherent in the targeting loop when using an line of sight lightspeed weapons at something several lightseconds away.

penny wrote:Now that’s a thought. An FTL targeting system! Brain food for Alphas? In the form of a superior computer; the Behemoth? Their very own RDs sprinting FTL targeting coordinates? Or some totally unprecedented innovation. And if the MAN is somehow able to tag certain ships with FTL beacons then the fat lady may certainly sing in real time.

Jonathan_S wrote:sure -- it's a thought if you missed the part where I explained why an FTL targeting system wasn't sufficient at those ranges.

Even if your graser targeting is FTL the graser itself isn't.

And since it takes the graser 3.33 seconds to cover a million km...

Even if you know exactly where the target ship is now (rather than where it was 3.33 seconds ago) by the time your graser covers a million km any Honorverse warship (other than a spider powered one) can divert from its projected course by at least 22km. And since even the largest Honorverse ship is barely a km long being able to change their projected location by more than that during the flight time of the graser beam means even with FTL targeting a ship can easily generate a miss from your graser.

Getting a hit at that kind of range requires:
1) The ship to be dead stupid and hold an utterly unvarying course; without even the normal automated position 'shifting' within its wedge (specifically done as a routine automated measure to avoid long range unguided fire). OR
2) Cracking the algorithms behind that automated mechanism so you can actually predict where (in the absence of new helm orders) the ship will be when the graser finally reaches it. OR
3) A lot of luck. (Though firing many beams at the same ship means you need less luck, since only one needs to hit, but still a fair amount)

True, but in the case of FTL targeting, would any of that matter? FTL targeting would also apply the vector of the target allowing the graser to move with the ship. By the time the ship knows what is happening it is dead. If the sidewalls fall in one second then the ship is exposed to two seconds of back and forth sweeping of the beam also under FTL targeting instructions.

Also, I seriously doubt that the GF would adopt a zig-zagging pattern:

1. Outside the hyper limit.
2. During a zero/zero intercept with the planet.

I don't think a fleet should be attempting a rendezvous with the planet if it is still taking losses and there's still a need to zig-zag.

And the idea of the GF entering a system and it immediately begins to skate is hilarious.

penny wrote:True, but in the case of FTL targeting, would any of that matter? FTL targeting would also apply the vector of the target allowing the graser to move with the ship. By the time the ship knows what is happening it is dead. If the sidewalls fall in one second then the ship is exposed to two seconds of back and forth sweeping of the beam also under FTL targeting instructions.

Also, I seriously doubt that the GF would adopt a zig-zagging pattern:

1. Outside the hyper limit.
2. During a zero/zero intercept with the planet.

I don't think a fleet should be attempting a rendezvous with the planet if it is still taking losses and there's still a need to zig-zag.

And the idea of the GF entering a system and it immediately begins to skate is hilarious.

My understanding is the most basic level of evasive maneuver is totally automatic. That whenever a warship is accelerating under wedge it is jittering around within the wedge to avoid remaining predictably at the wedge's geometric center.

And because ships maintain formation based on where their wedges are, not where the ships within them are, that auto-jitter doesn't affect fleet maneuvers at all.

So even when a formation isn't making zig zags to try to prevent people from sneaking into the their path (or dropping mines there) the ships are still doing this auto-jitter and a random 1/2% displacement within the wedge is enough to generate a complete miss if the graser firing from a million klicks out didn't guess correctly about how the ship would changes its jitter vector over the next 3 seconds.

You could presumably go into the helm computer and turn off their default automatic safety measure. But why would you?

And at a million km if that auto-jitter isn't disabled it doesn't mater whether FTL sensors can see the ship's current vector (including that jitter within the wedge) because there's still that 3+ lag from when the graser fires until the first photons arrive and most likely the next random jitter will change the ships location within the wedge enough the graser will miss. Because it can't adjust where the photons are going once they've left its muzzle. If the graser is still firing it can change its point of aim to the projected location of the ship; but the photons heading there also take 3 seconds and if the ship doesn't actually end up there when they arrive the beam just continues to miss.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:True, but in the case of FTL targeting, would any of that matter? FTL targeting would also apply the vector of the target allowing the graser to move with the ship. By the time the ship knows what is happening it is dead. If the sidewalls fall in one second then the ship is exposed to two seconds of back and forth sweeping of the beam also under FTL targeting instructions.

Also, I seriously doubt that the GF would adopt a zig-zagging pattern:

1. Outside the hyper limit.
2. During a zero/zero intercept with the planet.

I don't think a fleet should be attempting a rendezvous with the planet if it is still taking losses and there's still a need to zig-zag.

And the idea of the GF entering a system and it immediately begins to skate is hilarious.

My understanding is the most basic level of evasive maneuver is totally automatic. That whenever a warship is accelerating under wedge it is jittering around within the wedge to avoid remaining predictably at the wedge's geometric center.

And because ships maintain formation based on where their wedges are, not where the ships within them are, that auto-jitter doesn't affect fleet maneuvers at all.

So even when a formation isn't making zig zags to try to prevent people from sneaking into the their path (or dropping mines there) the ships are still doing this auto-jitter and a random 1/2% displacement within the wedge is enough to generate a complete miss if the graser firing from a million klicks out didn't guess correctly about how the ship would changes its jitter vector over the next 3 seconds.

You could presumably go into the helm computer and turn off their default automatic safety measure. But why would you?

And at a million km if that auto-jitter isn't disabled it doesn't mater whether FTL sensors can see the ship's current vector (including that jitter within the wedge) because there's still that 3+ lag from when the graser fires until the first photons arrive and most likely the next random jitter will change the ships location within the wedge enough the graser will miss. Because it can't adjust where the photons are going once they've left its muzzle. If the graser is still firing it can change its point of aim to the projected location of the ship; but the photons heading there also take 3 seconds and if the ship doesn't actually end up there when they arrive the beam just continues to miss.

Now the one advantage of the 3 sec beam is you could automatically program a pattern which will paint the entire probably volume the target ship can possibly inhabit withthe graser - the downside is while you get hits - probably a lot of them in that period - you don't achieve that lingering burn through because the beam is always sweeping across the volume, needing to burn through new armor and sidewall every microsecond. given the smaller size of the weapon; against SDs, this may just do a lot of superficial damage, but little to no critical damage.

Theemile wrote:Now the one advantage of the 3 sec beam is you could automatically program a pattern which will paint the entire probably volume the target ship can possibly inhabit withthe graser - the downside is while you get hits - probably a lot of them in that period - you don't achieve that lingering burn through because the beam is always sweeping across the volume, needing to burn through new armor and sidewall every microsecond. given the smaller size of the weapon; against SDs, this may just do a lot of superficial damage, but little to no critical damage.

Exactly what I was thinking.

At any rate, I don't understand this idea of superficial damage. Conventional energy weapons only fire for microseconds and destroy a ship with sidewalls down. A 3-second firing graser executing a sweep pattern will certainly be on target for more than microseconds. It will be like hitting the target several times with conventional energy weapons. It will go boom.

I also suggested upstream that these scaled up grasers will be as powerful as any SD energy weapon.

BTW, that is the strafe mode that I suggested eons ago.

Theemile wrote:Now the one advantage of the 3 sec beam is you could automatically program a pattern which will paint the entire probably volume the target ship can possibly inhabit withthe graser - the downside is while you get hits - probably a lot of them in that period - you don't achieve that lingering burn through because the beam is always sweeping across the volume, needing to burn through new armor and sidewall every microsecond. given the smaller size of the weapon; against SDs, this may just do a lot of superficial damage, but little to no critical damage.

penny wrote:Exactly what I was thinking.

At any rate, I don't understand this idea of superficial damage. Conventional energy weapons only fire for microseconds and destroy a ship with sidewalls down. A 3-second firing graser executing a sweep pattern will certainly be on target for more than microseconds. It will be like hitting the target several times with conventional energy weapons. It will go boom.

I also suggested upstream that these scaled up grasers will be as powerful as any SD energy weapon.

Yes, they will certainly try to scale the graser up to SD level or more; that depends on whether the author allows it. For instance, the increase in power might decrease the lifetime.

It is strictly a matter of chance whether the beam is hitting the wedge, the sidewall, the target or empty space between them all. Between the movement of the beam and that of the ship, there is no guarantee of even hundredths of a microsecond; therefore superficial damage.